What should be consider a new character or an update?

[verz36]

 well, its been so far some discussions about what a new character is. what makes it different from an update.

 in this case lets take electro and i want to hear what you guys think.. for those that compared it to the old version, what do you think and why. is he a new character to you or is he an update, its the debate that i want to hear about..

 somethings to consider here, are all ryus and kens updates from others because they share same sprites?
 are the different supermans released by different people with different play styles just an update to the others?
 same goes for many more, the dooms like the one by mr. infinite? is that an update because it has the same capcom sprites or a new character? there are so many other samples too

 for those that dont know, electro was coded from scratch. all the specials are different, hypers are different, intros and win poses are different. the voice is different. even some of the basics are different. the fx are different. the sprites that were used from before were reworked a lot with shading and even custom has more things now.. so lets hear what makes a new character or an update to you.

[messyt]

I'll consider your latest incarnation of Electro as a brand new character.  You could say that because of the following:

-Brand new sprite work and new stance

-NEW AWESOME SAUCE VOICE WORK BY HYPERVOICEACTING

-New, original moves exclusive to the character

He's simply a new character!

The older version of Electro is pretty good but when comparing them, there's simply too much of a difference!  That's just my opinion.

[verz36]

I'll consider your latest incarnation of Electro as a brand new character.  You could say that because of the following:

-Brand new sprite work and new stance

-NEW AWESOME SAUCE VOICE WORK BY HYPERVOICEACTING

-New, original moves exclusive to the character

He's simply a new character!

The older version of Electro is pretty good but when comparing them, there's simply too much of a difference!  That's just my opinion.

 cool and thanks for your answer.. im trying to show somebody that has doubts about electro as a new character and he is not so sure. so maybe this can help him see more clear.

[Jmaxximus]

I'll consider your latest incarnation of Electro as a brand new character.  You could say that because of the following:

-Brand new sprite work and new stance

-NEW AWESOME SAUCE VOICE WORK BY HYPERVOICEACTING

-New, original moves exclusive to the character

He's simply a new character!

I agree. I consider an update that is something that was just worked on for an update. Like all they worked on was the coding or just the sprites (make them look better).

Electro is something totally different. Although some of the sprites are updated ALOT of the sprites are new. The game play of the character is totally new, he has new moves, new animations new sprites new voice work.

Everything is new to me on him. of work went into him being totally different from his previous version. I personally have both of them in my roster. It's always good to see where something came from.

You guys did great work.

Electro update? NO not by a long shot.

I say New Electro

The older version of Electro is pretty good but when comparing them, there's simply too much of a difference!  That's just my opinion.

[manluis]

the only thing Recharged Electro and Older Electro have in common are some of the sprites, but that's about it

this new electro is just too much to just be called an update, so i consider it a brand new character.

[Twinimage]

Was the original release a full char or a beta? If just a beta, this recharged version would really be your first full release, so he'd be a "new" char then, right? The word "recharged" kind of makes it sound like an update though. But an "update" isn't bad, it means you made him better. It's hard to say, because the original release was so long ago and I can't remember if he was beta or not.

Separate creations from different people I see as a "new" character. Now, if they are all making Capcom Spider-man, I'd maybe call them "clones" Unless it's a substantial amount of change from the original Capcom Spidey, like zvitor's, which I see as it's own character, thus it was "new", not just "updated".

I don't really pay attention to the terms that often. A good creation is a good creation and is welcome either way.

[O Ilusionista]

For me, its quite simple:

Updated - Some new effects, some new sprites, some new codes, some new palettes or AI. Pay attention to the word "some".

New - New sff or almost everything new, codes done from scratch or almost everything, etc.


Take Electro as an example, its a NEW character, because its a new version.

[Arkady]

Yep electro is definitely new
ive updated many characters and plenty of them are what we call "updates"
but to re-design a character completely, that's "new"
its hard to place everything in boxes to give an exact accounting of each effort put in, to say this is new or this is an update, most cases its pretty evident,
i don't really don't think it matters, but i'd say his is pretty new
the confusion might be coz its the same crew that worked electro prior,
but even so pyro by zvitor, is something i consider new and that's two different creators, then ive added some extra to it, which i consider an "update" due to the original character from zvitors work is still remanint

[verz36]

 thank you all for the replies.. i know it dont matter if its a update or new, you will enjoy it regardless. but i was trying to show someone that had his doubts about it and the conversations got a little heated.

[O Ilusionista]

Verz, don't take people from Mugen communities too serious. Its harmful for your health.

[Arkady]

Tell me about it, ive just had a rubbish 24 hours over issue that aren't even about mugen, it was a breath of fresh air to actually read and talk about something that was, thank you verz, and others who posted here and EX on the "couple of tips" thread

[verz36]

Verz, don't take people from Mugen communities too serious. Its harmful for your health.

 i understand bro, but its things like this that takes the fun away from making anything mugen related.
http://mugenmultiverse.fanbb.net/t1002p60-axhibit#61405

 you cant reason with this things, kinda makes you want to hang the gloves and retire...

[Arkady]

geez sorry about that bro, I had no idea, send me that stuff ,if you see it, straight away,
It really burns me when there is disregards to the site rules, but they do it anyway, and it makes everyone look bad, it makes me wanna 
like repeatedly....

you know a while back I did similar things, with portraits, and such, but now it just burns me when I see it, you can say I have grown smarter through my endeavours

[verz36]

 Is things like this that I still don't get. I can't control what anybody wants to do but sometimes you try to reason but it's useless. I respect people's work, why can't others do the same. It's called getting along in the mugen community. There is the cyclops base from capcom that's open source. Why not use that? I look at it like if it's on purpose. Specially after the heated words with a guy I had. Like retaliation.

[Arkady]

in my honest opinion, it's always best nod, and not bother, best always not to ruffle feathers
most of the time, falls on deaf ears, people hurt whoever however, in their pursuit to either perfection or boldness, most of time its both, I clash with many a people in the mugen community, and really realised that its not "A" community, its individuals and stubbornness towards each other that drives us all apart, I find it best to stick to the work, and crack a hobo joke every once in while, mugen "drama" is for the weak
better to rise above the petty humans and become HOBO SUPERIOR!!!!!

(yes I just finished magnetos lines ....and no that's not one of them, but hobos rule)

[manluis]

if you dont mind me asking, what happened exactly? by the time i got there to MMV, Volzilla deleted all the posts you were talking about.

[Arkady]

HOBO SUPERIOR!!!!!

making fun edits from verz's work, obviously without permission
happens everywhere, maybe a bit more at MMV, but we are vigilant!!
and happen to have all the new guys that get driven away from all the MEANER sites
it happens we brush the floor, we carry on

[manluis]

ah i see. and they call us at MFG jerks huh? I swear if it's people like this that will make verz lose motivation and stuff, then i don't wanna be part of MMV. well, atleast there are people there that are still polite and respectful.

[Arkady]

I'd rather be affiliated with no site than be labelled as iMT or MMV or wherever I have a login, that I frequent, I just want to see what's new, not who's blasting who
I really find that deterring, to hear these kinda posts about sites being a collective nuisance, but usually it's just one guy that ruins it for everybody

[verz36]

ah i see. and they call us at MFG jerks huh? I swear if it's people like this that will make verz lose motivation and stuff, then i don't wanna be part of MMV. well, atleast there are people there that are still polite and respectful.

 Thanks for the support!!!! I usually go to different sites and want to be cool with people. All I want is to make characters and share for the enjoyments not to edit my stuff but things like this are making me rethink if it's better to go private or just call it quits all together. It's really frustrating.

[manluis]

i dont have a affiliated site myself, i just hate it when people say "oh this forum is full of badmouthers and  jerks! dont come there! come here!" even though they become egotistical jerks themselves. verz, dont worry! we all love your works and we would be sad if you left us on a bad note. dont mind some guys online, its bad for your health hehe.

[Chimoru]

There is the cyclops base from capcom that's open source. Why not use that?

Maybe this is another topic, but I've always wondered...
Is that really open source? Says who?  Capcom?  Marvel? They're the owners of it.  Did we just decide for ourselves that it was ok to do this? The original sprites had to have been made by someone. One of the "object designers" from Children of the Atom.  An actual person with a name and a family who had to develop the skills to create them in the first place.  We never credit them, but we always build of THEIR work and then call it ours, and then get mad when SOMEONE ELSE does the same thing.  A bit of a double standard, I feel.

I've always believed that everything we do in MUGEN is a violation to the original game/comic companies SOMEhow, they just never come after us because it's all non-profit, and it works like free promotion to them. They could request these forums remove anything Capcom or Marvel related. (Kinda like what they did with the Freedom Force game mods http://www.freedomfans.com/KenMessage.html) I'm not trying to argue with you personally or attack you...it's just a question I've always had and your comment made me think about it again.  That's why I always consider my stuff open source....because it's not really MINE. 

Besides, it's the internet.  There will ALWAYS be someone who takes your stuff, edit it, claim it, etc and not credit you.  I've had game mods and content that I've made and shared be taken by the actual GAME COMPANY and posted on the official page and I wasn't credited.  In fact they credited someone else entirely.  So if a person is a creator and that happens and they can't handle it, they have two choices.  Get over it and keep doing what they love...or hang it up, which would be regrettable.  It happens to all of us. This is the cruel reality of the internet.  It's why things like trademarks exist.

For these reasons, I try to stay humble and thankful for the permissions we have and try not to become too entitled with them. Again, just my opinion. 

[manluis]

Maybe this is another topic, but I've always wondered...
Is that really open source? Says who?  Capcom?  Marvel? They're the owners of it.  Did we just decide for ourselves that it was ok to do this? The original sprites had to have been made by someone.

Capcom and SNK has already stated it is okay to use their material for fan-purposes AS LONG as we don't profit off it.

[Chimoru]

This is true.  I actually wrote to Marvel and Capcom once for a fan project and while Marvel (pre-disney) never responded to me, Capcom did and said what you just did, that it was fine as long as it was non-profit.  That's why I'm still not certain about Marvel, especially now that they are Disney.  They never told me one way or the other, and I only have to go on the times they exercised their copyright in order to keep it from becoming public domain. Once that I know of with Freedom Force, and another with City of Heroes.  I'm not aware of other times, but I'm sure there has been.

[manluis]

the marvel sprites are owned by capcom however, so we can use them. besides, marvel,capcom,snk and most other companies don't really care about us using their sprites as long as we don't make money. money money money is all they care about when it comes to fan-projects.