Venom Tangent Topic

[Acey]

Maybe instead of thinking you have advanced (or even beginner)knowledge of coding, you should actually learn how things work. Or maybe you're right and can prove it!

Easy Mr. doubt face...

[State 3210, HitOverride]
type = HitOverride
trigger1 = 1
attr = SCA,NA,SA,HA,NP,SP,HP,NT,ST,HT
stateno = 3240

obviously a "nothitby" would be perfered since the Void hyper should be blockable but not reversable, but I still think DCL's hitoverride suggestion is a perfectly viable solution and it would put the Void into his "leaving" state and animation upon getting hit. So instead of pretending that you have advanced (or even beginner) knowledge of coding you can go start making stuff then get back with me later.

[shootYr.]

DCL even admitted that he was wrong. You wanna keep going? Fine.



REVERSALDEF DOES NOT HAVE AN ATTR 

[Acey]

I do because in the very least this will be instructive, You don't see reversaldef in versus series characters (which I have vast everience in) but it pops up often in KoF chars (which I have not coded even once) so this will be good to know. First of all the code I posted would need to change to def 3240 instead of def 3220 and you'll need to put the code into def 3210 through 3230. Even with that said there is your main point of the attributes...

Now the reversal def takes on the hitdef attributes (pausetime, etc..) of the opponent, so are you saying that a reversal def won't take on the atttributes of the hitdef as well? That's pretty lame if it's true. Can't blame you though, you didn't program the engine.

In the very least we can agree that "nothitby" it the best option never-the-less, but then again I did say that two posts back.

[shootYr.]

My post is long, but meaningful. You might learn a couple of things, Sempai. =3

First of all the code I posted would need to change to def 3240 instead of def 3220 and you'll need to put the code into def 3210 through 3230. Even with that said there is your main point of the attributes...

...This is wrong. I will explain why this is wrong.

3240 is for when Void destroys himself. Why would you use clsns on a helper that has no purpose other than to appear? Would you put clsns on a hitspark???

Are you play testing this stuff or are you so arrogant that you honestly believe that whatever you say will work because you THINK you have the experience to back it up?

State 3210 uses an anim that has no clsns and has no hitdefs... You wouldn't NEED a hitoverride for that, because
                   1. How can you hit something that has no physical presence?
                   2. (If what you're saying about hitoverride reversing reversals is true, (it's not true btw)your character would need to be attacking in order to avoid the reversal right??? Fun fact. Not only is the Void's movetype in that state I, but he has NO HITDEF.  There's 1 reason why you can't hit him during that move and 2 reasons why he would never be taken from Sentry's states.

State 3230 should receive the hitoverride? You should definitely watch the video again, because Rock grabs the Void out of state 3220 (The first hit of the Void's attack). How would having a hitoverride do anything if the Void isn't even going to go to that state? He touches Rock, Rock forces him out of state 3220 into a custom state, the Void never sees his own states again.

Now the reversal def takes on the hitdef attributes (pausetime, etc..) of the opponent, so are you saying that a reversal def won't take on the atttributes of the hitdef as well? That's pretty lame if it's true. Can't blame you though, you didn't program the engine.

The hell are you talking about? What I'm saying is that reversaldef has no hitdef attr. It defines the kind of hits you're allowed to receive, but does not define itself as a hitting attack. If it did, character's like Cammy or Jill would be able to counter each others counters (Which is retarded).

In the very least we can agre-

Nah. We can't. If you have a red clsn on an anim that's linked with an active hitdef, and your moves aren't flagged properly, even with a nothitby sctrl, YOU CAN GET TOUCHED. How many times do I have to tell everyone that ROCK ISNT HITTING THE VOID. The reversaldef is forcing the Void into a custom state. Nothitby ignores hits, NOT reversaldefs. Really nice move by editing my post in an attempt to own me. Really witty (Just like how you did on youtube! You must do that a lot! =o )

Do you still want to continue or-?

[Space (DCL)]

This is still goin on???

Using a ReversalDef will prevent even hitoverrides to work. You are NOT hitting a character if you are using Reversaldef, you're basically COUNTERING their attack with it.

A perfect example of a ReversalDef: This is from P.O.T.S.'s Shin Gouki
[State 1500, Reversal]
type=reversaldef
trigger1= anim=1500 && animelem=3
reversal.attr=SCA,AA
p1stateno=1505
pausetime=0,20
hitsound=s2,0
sparkno=s7001
sparkxy=0,0
numhits=0

notice it does NOT have p2stateno. Why is it that? So any HELPERS using the following reversal.attr above wont get turned into custom states.

But if you made a reversaldef like this:
[State 0, ReversalDef]
type = ReversalDef
trigger1 = anim=####&&animelem=#
reversal.attr=SCA,AA
sparkno = S7001
hitsound = S2,0
p1stateno = ####
p2stateno = ####
ignorehitpause = 1

Now then any HELPERS with ANY hitdef of the underlined attributes above, will get countered and forced into a custom state...

so how do we solve this?

Basically, do NOT have p2stateno in the reversaldef

I set all my helpers (mainly projectile based) to have the following attributes in their hitdefs
attr=A,NP/SP/HP/NA/SA/HA

Mainly because reversaldefs are used to counter ground based attacks (standing or crouching), so using A as the first attribute is an attempt to avoid reversaldefs.

[Spidermew]

All this talk of sentery, I should re-record the vocals now that i have a better microphone.

[Acey]

Do you still want to continue or-?

@ DCL, I split the topic so I can carry on talking with Y without mucking up the Venom topic.
@ Spidermew, I would add them in if you did.

@ Y, You can agree to disagree but I'll agree to agree. Writting a wall of text doesn't mean any more then just getting to the point... there is no argument at this point that hitoveride is not equiped to handle reversaldef, unless you want to argue with yourself. There's no need to get bent out of shape based on an analytical exercise. If I knew you were on a witch hunt rather then civilized conversation then I wouldn't have bothered. On to your replies:

* 3240 is the destroy self state, so of course that is where the helper would go if it was cancelled for some silly reason.
* 3210+3230, so what's your point? I listed a range that contained all the helper states for convience of conversation, your just nit picking because it gives more to write on the wall
* The fact that reversal def takes on all the attributes of the attack's hitdef but not the hitdef's own attributes is an omission on the part of the engine programmers. Don't blame me. They certaintly have the power to add the ability to take on a hitattr and at the same time make an additional control to govern if the reversaldef, or the state following, can be reversed again or not, which would stop the hyopthetical loops you mentioned. At this point it's just theory and not the real world.
* I didn't edit your post, it must be your juvenile alzheimers setting in.

Now on to something informative, could someone post up the reversaldef from Rock.

[HyperVoiceActing]

... so how about Venom's win poses?

[Acey]

It does work like that. Hit override can negate throws and reversals as well.

Also, this statement is wrong. Hitoverride can not negate "reversaldef".

[ZVitor]

 

[Space (DCL)]

O_o

Anyway, can we dump this topic now? I can't believe how long this has been going...

[Acey]

pfff, Mr. "statedef -2" solves everything... you're right, but still...

@ DCL, I'll dump it eventually, but apparently Y isn't online like the rest of us at the moment. BTW, still wondering, which Rock Howard is that?

[ZVitor]

maybe -1 solve....

anyway, in liking this discussion, and learning some new stuffs too.

[.ALEXZIQ.]

I agree Zvitor

In regards to venom I think I have to go with Cybasters feedback that there are many ways to solve the issue with the venom hyper.

That said though there is a lot of useful information in this thread.

Personaly I dont like attacks that cant be hit if p1 isnt in a custom state. However in the case of sentry I think a change in flag probably would be more fitting than a hit override onless you want to make the void more sentient as a helper wth hits, and counter attacks, and destroyself after so many hits, ect.

But I definately think in some cases Y's suggestions might be fitting under certain circumstances. In venoms case I would prefer the code to be reworked a tad, but thats just me.

Regardless a lot of useful information in this heated, yet educational debate 

[Error Macro]

I'll dump it eventually

Why dump it?  There's a lot of knowledge in this thread.  I'm sure someone can learn something from reading through this as evidenced by the last two posts.  I even learned a bit from reading this.

Also, that's Vyn's Rock.

[shootYr.]

DCL : What about characters like Geese or Iori, who rely on forcing p2 into their states for certain specials/hypers? You can't always omit p2stateno. The best solution (I'm repeating myself here), is to use projectile INSTEAD of hitdef for helper's attacks OR use a hitdef attr that's a throw (Because I doubt anyone would try to use reversaldef a throw attr. Unless you're like Acey here, who believes that writing all attrs makes you 100% invulnerable to anything and everything ). 
Acey-Kun, I have another long post for you! Please enjoy it!!! (Users that aren't Acey can skip to the bottom horizontal rule)

(click to show/hide)

@ DCL, I split the topic so I can carry on talking with Y without mucking up the Venom topic.

Don't you think YOU were the one mucking it up with false information? =3

there is no argument at this point that hitoveride is not equiped to handle reversaldef, unless you want to argue with yourself.

Of course there was. You were so certain that hitoverride would stop the problem right?

* 3240 is the destroy self state, so of course that is where the helper would go if it was cancelled for some silly reason.

-_-
You said to put the hitoverride there... Didn't I just write a bunch of text explaining WHY he would not go there if he was cancelled? Are you skipping what I'm writing to protect your ego?

* 3210+3230, so what's your point? I listed a range that contained all the helper states for convience of conversation, your just nit picking because it gives more to write on the wall

I nitpicked it because hitoverride would
                 1. DO NOTHING IN A STATE WHERE THE HELPER HAS NO CLSNS
                 2. NOT OVERRIDE A REVERSALDEF

* The fact that reversal def takes on all the attributes of the attack's hitdef but not the hitdef's own attributes is an omission on the part of the engine programmers. Don't blame me.

...You can't be f**king serious... You spent the last few pages arguing that hitoverride would avoid reversals. I am going to blame you for your ignorance. (BACKPEDAL MUCH??)

They certaintly have the power to add the ability to take on a hitattr and at the same time make an additional control to govern if the reversaldef, or the state following, can be reversed again or not, which would stop the hyopthetical loops you mentioned. At this point it's just theory and not the real world.

Wh- What does this have to do with anything?

* I didn't edit your post, it must be your juvenile alzheimers setting in.

You did.

So instead of pretending that you have advanced (or even beginner) knowledge of coding you can go start making stuff then get back with me later.

You took my post and edited it as a means of being witty. It would have worked too if you weren't absolutely wrong.

Now on to something informative, could someone post up the reversaldef from Rock.

(Translation : I spent all this time arguing with Yzan and have been proven wrong, but I'm going to try to change the subject. I surely hope I can save face.)Why wouldn't you just stop at DCL's post? One of the best coders on this forum admits to being wrong, but you decide to go against his word anyway? Why

You don't need to see the reversaldef, dude. It would be more beneficial to you if you actually understood how they work. http://elecbyte.com/wiki/index.php/ReversalDef You can read about all the other state controllers on that wiki too.

There's no reason to dump this topic. Users above me have proclaimed it as informative, and I believe many other creators can use it as a means of avoiding the mistakes of creators such as Acey. I'm not suggesting it be stickied, but there may be someone here who decides to code something similar to the Sentry's Void hyper and remembers this.

pfff, Mr. "statedef -2" solves everything... you're right, but still... 

...That was really uncalled for. Zvitor wasn't even being remotely disrespectful. I'm guessing another reason for keeping this topic up would be to show users how an admin acts when he's been proven wrong on something he strongly believed in. Your response to Zvitor, though short, was absolutely repugnant.

I am going to help you though. Maybe if you recieve one good thing out of this, you'll be able to accept the fact that you were wrong, leave, and enjoy a nice humble pie (plz).

I have almost 20 videos showcasing issues with your characters. One of the primary things showcased is your usage of helpers with bad attr. Helper coded projectiles should have a hitdef attr of PROJECTILE not ATTACK.

http://www.youtube.com/user/oYzano/videos

I hope you don't feel so bad about this and I really hope you don't respond to anyone in the same way that you responded to Zvitor.

GG PZ

[ZVitor]

nah.
acey is a friend, no disrespect there.

now, lets return to hitoverride/reverssal lesson and move this thread to discussion board.

[Acey]

Nope, I'll admit when I'm wrong. As a matter of fact I made just one specific post a few hours back stating nothing but "I was wrong". Call it back pedeling, call me out for making a joke with my friends, call me out for asking to see if Rock had a p2stateno in his reversal def in my effort to better understand the situation, what ever I say you'll take it in what ever voice you're allready carying in your mind. That's just the impression you get from reading comments on a forum from people you don't know.

[shootYr.]

You make me sound prejudice. I guess I'm wrong for how I judged your post to Zvitor... Kinda like how you were wrong about HitOverride working on reversaldefs (OMFG ).

If you say something is right and then say something like... "Oh, I didn't know that was like that. You can't blame me for being wrong about that" then you're pretty much trying to get out of committing to an idea that you previously claimed was correct. That's a form of backpedaling.
 
Show me which part of my post calls you out for inquiring about the contents of Rock's reversaldef. There was no reason for me to tell you about that since DCL and I spoke about it in this very topic.

The problem I have here is that you continuously tried to convince me, and everyone else who participated/read this topic, that you were right about this. In doing so, you may have put a wrong idea into the minds of many inexperienced creators. In addition, you've added all these irrelevant, false points, when you should have stopped as soon as I PROVED myself to be correct.

Now you just expect me to drop the entire thing, even though you tried to be rude to me by taking one of my posts, editing it, and attempting to redirect it towards me to be witty and own me (You cannot deny this). Don't you see anything wrong with walking away without formally apologizing for doing something like that when you can't deny that you were absolutely wrong? =3

I'm pretty sure that if you and the other staff hadn't made the terrible decision of making this forum "Family Friendly", you would have called me something a lot worse than Mr. Doubt Face.

[~Hale "R@CE" Caesar~]

(Walks In) WoW..........

Why do I feel like a quiet, yet violent storm is about to come? Better grab me some C.R.O.M. Wolvenom popcorn  and sit back....

  I feel a Ultra Combo coming pretty soon!!!! 

[SanjiSasuke]

Ok, so from what I can tell, this ended up in Y. being right about the coding in question? Now I'm pretty sure Acey didn't edit the post, but hey I'm not psychic and certainly biased. In the end, Y., you 'won' and if you want, Acey could just strikethrough the original misleading posts with the comment 'Wrong, check page # to show explanation".

Hopefully this will help fix the IMT chars as well as TOPS's.

[shootYr.]

.....

Maybe instead of thinking you have advanced (or even beginner)knowledge of coding, you should actually learn how things work. Or maybe you're right and can prove it!

So instead of pretending that you have advanced (or even beginner) knowledge of coding you can go start making stuff then get back with me later.

[Space (DCL)]

(Walks In) WoW..........

Why do I feel like a quiet, yet violent storm is about to come? Better grab me some C.R.O.M. Wolvenom popcorn  and sit back....

  I feel a Ultra Combo coming pretty soon!!!! 

.......

Anyway...let's clear something up for reversaldef and hitoverride okay...

Whatever I have underlined...make a note of that...

Here's what I now have for my hitoverride on one of my characters (not released yet...)
By the way, this is indeed a projectile helper...

[State 1050, HitOverride]
type=HitOverride
trigger1=1
attr=SCA,AP,AA,AT ;Will work if hit by all projectiles, attacks, and throws...
stateno=1051
time=-1 ;Yes...this is important...
ignorehitpause=1

Here's what my projectile helper can get hit by...
[State 1050, HitBy]
type=HitBy
trigger1=1
value=SCA,AP ;ALL Projectile based attacks...
ignorehitpause=1

Here's the end state for the projectile...

[State 1050, end]
type=ChangeState
trigger1=MoveContact||MoveReversed ;YES this is a trigger in fact...
value=1051

Even with all that, you'd think the attack would not be reversed...even if i put ignorehitpause=1

Example of a reversaldef
[State 0, ReversalDef]
type = ReversalDef
trigger1 = (whatever is used to trigger it here)
reversal.attr=SA,AA,AP ;Counters all attacks that are standing and air (projectile ones too)
sparkno = S8300
hitsound = S2,0
p1stateno = whatever
p2stateno =whatever man...

There goes my helper (with hitdef attr = A,SP)...turns into a clone...now then what if we added this lil line to reversaldef...
attr = C,SA

That would mess up the reversaldef because now it makes it possible to counter a reversal WITH ANOTHER reversal...but look at the reversal.attr of the reversaldef above...

Makes sense? This is a way a reversal wont counter another reversal with hit attributes of its own...
I think Y. said something about this before?

I just tested this myself and it works. I can't guarantee it'll work for all characters because everyone codes differently...

Anyway short and simple, a reversaldef without its own HIT attributes will counter everything...even if its MEANT to be invincible...

[Tha Lando ( Le CROM )]

"looks and reads EVERYTHING" !
hmmm very useful information once i filter out all the much uneeded Matrix talk. even i know there is many ways to code stuff to make certain things work since people code things differently to get a desired thing to work. But for something to work right and on cue a proper code may be needed for the correct effect and clean. so i will just keep reading and maybe i might have to try a few of these  things out myself to see what will work and what wont. Just please my bros, dont go super overnerd on the subject. you can keep it debateable and yet still civil .  Trying to learn something here! ... thank you for posting so us newcomers can learn a trick or 2. 

[Infinite Power]

Hopefully this will help fix the IMT chars as well as TOPS's.

Hopefully, but people would have to stop arguing over how to fix the bugs (with I don't have a problem with the debate) and actually fix the known bugs that Y. and others have pointed out. But I think people would rather just talk about fixing thing than actually have to go and update the problems. I myself had to learn there is nothing wrong with updating/fixing something if it makes it better in the long run but sometimes people feel their stuff is perfect.