Batman: Superhero or not

[Alexziq]

I made a special post for this one because a concept you (the you beeing the creator of the concept) created eludes you.

Let's take a good example about Hokuto no ken, In the begining the autors has no idea he would have to continue with the story.
You have the end beeing Kenshiro beating Shin, but after that he continue and you have a story about Raoh and Toki beeing brothers and fighting in front of their family tombs. well ok for me, after that you have what the fans call ken2, Ken goes to the island from where Raoh, Toki and Him left where they where child, so much for the family tomb and for Kenshiro joining by himself Ryuken.

Now with this silly example you can see one point, it's not because you create something that you are right about it.

As for Marvel the first ones had super powers so it didn't matter super ou just heroes.
As for DC most of them aren't even human, and the Detective Comics book, didn't claim having somethig to do with super beings ou super heroes when they made the genesis of Batman, little child going to the theatre with his parents, they are killed by a criminal etc etc.

He fight evil etc etc, then out of nowhere, oh he's just so smart, and oh nobody's fight better than him, he can destroy a 100 tonnes like the Hulk (or maybe he can't but I'm sure he could, and he's so special that the creators will decide it for him)

Once you've create something you can't decide what's correct or not about it if you don't refer to the rules you made.
Well ther is no codification about what is or isn't a superhero, and even if the creators made people for their story they never implemented what it was like saying "do you think the kingpin is a supervilain" before making him and then realizing he has no super power and deciding it's a supervilain anyway, they just created him. for the rest he is or he isn't gifted with super power.

If your familiar with jewish studying (like two good friends arguing endlessly about a question, each one giving new arguments and counter arguments) then you'll know that authority's argument like the creator decide like this never justify an answer or prooves your right.

The marvel and DC creators could be wrong, so only your opinion and arguments count.

I don't think one of us will change his opinion, it doesn't mean I don't respect your opinion, and I'll try my best to convince you without animosity but with passion/enthousiasm.

The debat is beniffiting about reading and trying to apprehend new ideas.

Then about this one, you're better than just protecting yourself with the creators first ideas/will.

The fan and the men/women who think about those notion are the one to decide what's wrong or correct about a concept.

You can throw out whatever you want (Superhero) is not a term deemed to mean having Superpowers. I can argue all I want that the sky is purple on a daily basis is does not make me correct.

There are hundreds of words in the english language that begin with the prefix (super) most of which have absolutely nothing to do with Superpowers of any kind. You simply can't argue the definition of Super. You could but it would be totally moronic to do so.

[.:K.I.N.G:.]

Theres no reason to blame DC, DC set the definition of a Superhero you are simply choosing to argue with those that defined the term.

You have incorrectly decided to believe that Superhero means having super powers when it clearly has nothing to do with it.

Unless you created the term I dont see how you can argue it, but thats your freedom.

Post Merge: May 20, 2009, 11:21:51 AMAgain youre arguing that Superhero means Superpowers when it does not.

When someone says "superficial", or "supercalifragilisticexpialidocious"  do you think that means super powers? Does the Super Bowl have powers? When the U.S. And Russia were called the "Super Powers" Were they 2 Superhuman countries?

, i'm not arguing about the term superpower/supernatural as the exact meaning of the word generally or real world subjects as it's written, we are talking about comic books superheroes here, right? that's what i'm talking about, nothing has to do with the word super or how it works for stuff like super bowl and things like that...i think you know too well that id doesn't give the same meaning for things like super bowl as it dose for the comic book characters heroes, my examples were relative to the subject of batman being a super hero or not, not meaning of terms and word games.

[Alexziq]

, i'm not arguing about the term superpower/supernatural as the exact meaning of the word generally or real world subjects as it's written, we are talking about comic books superheroes here, right? that's what i'm talking about, nothing has to do with the word super or how it works for stuff like super bowl and things like that...i think you know too well that id doesn't give the same meaning for things like super bowl as it dose for the comic book characters heroes, my examples were relative to the subject of batman being a super hero or not, not meaning of terms and word games.

My point however is that the term Superhero was coined to the early comicbook characters regardless of having powers or not.

Superhero is a term that is meant to be taken in the same way that 'Superbowl" is.

Having Superpowers is something differant than Superhero.

A much better debate would be to argue if the Hulk is a superhero, because theres nothing heroic about the Hulk.

[Acey]

You don't have to have a Super Power to be a Super Hero. Super Heroes are made by the choices they make and what they achieve.

[Tundra]

I think that he is a vigilante, an urban leyend 

[Spidermew]

You know if you really think about it, batman does have a super power.
Fear. No hero in the dcu is more feared then batman, even superman is afraid of him.


If someone thinks that anyone could do what batman does, then they need to try to make some gadgests that even the milatary cant perfect and go out and make a super charged car, an outfit other things and fight crime.

Not just anyone can be batman, not even with traning.

[Rage]

Thank u Mew and Acey

Fear, money, manipulation, etc are power of normal humans and as 4 heroes there are 4 terms. I ment 3 earlier

Hero   --------------- Fire man, police

Super Hero--------------- Batz, SuperMan, Spiderman, Ironman, Forge

Non powered super Hero-------------Batz, Iron

Superpowered Hero-------------SuperM, Spider, Forge

Non power, super power are subcatories. Its like Acey said and we all know this. A hero is defined by his actions. Same goes for  Superheroes. Superpowers just make it easier to obtain the title

So in a since the real (super) heroes are thoes who go the extra mile to acheive these goals. Batz, Ironman are more heroes then Super and Wonder in this since. 

[Gaijin]

batman is not a super hero at all. he doesnt have anything super about him. and about the part where spidermew mentioned can superman step in a shadow and disappear does not make batman a superhero because if i recall ninjas can do the same thing. batman is just a normal guy that has lots of money lots of training and lots of brains thats it. he is just a hero not a super hero. nothing more and nothing less. captain america is a superhero becuase he has super human strength, accelerated senses, and many other enhancements. batman can beat a lot of superheroes because he can outsmart them and not because hes super anything.

[Alexziq]

batman is not a super hero at all. he doesnt have anything super about him. and about the part where spidermew mentioned can superman step in a shadow and disappear does not make batman a superhero because if i recall ninjas can do the same thing. batman is just a normal guy that has lots of money lots of training and lots of brains thats it. he is just a hero not a super hero. nothing more and nothing less. captain america is a superhero becuase he has super human strength, accelerated senses, and many other enhancements. batman can beat a lot of superheroes because he can outsmart them and not because hes super anything.

You think Ninjas (like in the movies) are real?

Have you not read that Superhero does not = Superpowers
 

batman is not a super hero at all. he doesnt have anything super about him.

 

By the way Cap doesnt have Superpowers. All the Super Soldier Serum did was was make him into peak physical condition able to lift and press 500 lbs according to the Marvel Universe handbook. Batman did that without cheating. Body builders lift over that on a daily basis. They are hardly superheroes

Batman has also beaten the crap out of supervillians, and heroes "physically" and not just by outsmarting them.

[Rage]

By the way Cap doesnt have Superpowers. All the Super Soldier Serum did was was make him into peak physical condition able to lift and press 500 lbs according to the Marvel Universe handbook. Batman did that without cheating. Body builders lift over that on a daily basis. They are hardly superheroes

Batman has also beaten the crap out of supervillians, and heroes "physically" and not just by outsmarting them.

 

Have you not read that Superhero does not = Superpowers
 

I love this line 

[Spidermew]

batman is not a super hero at all. he doesnt have anything super about him. and about the part where spidermew mentioned can superman step in a shadow and disappear does not make batman a superhero because if i recall ninjas can do the same thing. batman is just a normal guy that has lots of money lots of training and lots of brains thats it. he is just a hero not a super hero. nothing more and nothing less. captain america is a superhero becuase he has super human strength, accelerated senses, and many other enhancements. batman can beat a lot of superheroes because he can outsmart them and not because hes super anything.

 

1. Batman can beet up any ninja
2. NINJAS ARNT REAL!
3. Captain America does not have super powers, hes in top physical form, and hes really good at throwing a disk designed to be very aerodynamic. And that whole frozen thing, its called cryogenics, cap exprenced a once in a lifetime chance at natural cryogenics working.

[Violent Ken Masters]

You know if you really think about it, batman does have a super power.
Fear. No hero in the dcu is more feared then batman, even superman is afraid of him.


If someone thinks that anyone could do what batman does, then they need to try to make some gadgests that even the milatary cant perfect and go out and make a super charged car, an outfit other things and fight crime.

Not just anyone can be batman, not even with traning.

Seriously fear?
That's not a super power that's a strategy. Big Boss did the same thing in MGS3 with using Snakes and and bee hives to scare the crap out of his enemies.

[Spidermew]

Seriously fear?
That's not a super power that's a strategy. Big Boss did the same thing in MGS3 with using Snakes and and bee hives to scare the crap out of his enemies.

Well when the sinestro corps pick big boss let me know. Batman was the first choice of the yellow lanterns corps, batman didnt need it.

So if batman isnt a super hero cuz he dosnt have powers just far beyond anyone in the real world will ever have, then robo cop isnt a superhero, iron man wasnt a super hero, captain america isnt a super hero, the phantom isnt a superhero, heck with that argument we can go so far as to say that if anyone of their race can do it then it isnt super. So that would rule out superman and thor and martan manhunter as all non super heros.

But no as long as they didnt have to work for their abilitys or make them they are super?
Well then Dr. Fate and Dr. Strange are not super heros then, nor is any magic user, cuz all that you have to work for.


See you dont get the point, it isnt the powers that make one super, its the ability to inspire people and live up to the symbol people make you out to be that makes you super.
Thats why Batman is a Super Hero.

[maru7580]

look all this can be sumed up easily if you answer that batman is not a super hero because he has no super powers then thats bogus look at black panther, moon knight, yes even characters such as cyborb he has no super powers hes part machine so hes just enhanced and look at bane people consider him a super villian and in reality he's just a super steriod freak nothing more.Bottom line being a super hero dosn't entail having the powers necessarily (although they do help) being a super hero is all in the doing and batman time a time again has proven himself a hero with his selfless acts to save others

[Shingokusatsu]

Come on, you can't quantify every single act of a hero/super hero but that's exactly what you do, by refering to the achievement, saving 1 = hero and 10 or more is superhero ?

Then someone stopping a plane saying he's got informations about a bomb, save 300 people at once is categorised as super hero ?

Or how much does it take ? 1000 or 10000 ?

The creators didn't even had in mind heroes or super heroes it was irrelevant untill we/the fans began searching for a real definition.

Well, your definition make every single one that achieve something special or beyond the reach of other people : super heroes. tarzan, bruce willis in praticly all his action movies, and all the heroes of action movies could be renamed as well as super heroes.

Now we are happy to know that robin wood also and every heroes (referred and mention by their creator to be "heroes" are in fact super heroes) and then again you don't have anymore difference between them.

Hitler was a super vilain by this standard, and vietnamiens ? too (yes they resisted to us army, not so well in fact but hey that's what history claim) and Al Quaïda then they succeeded in doing something that was never done before, so basicly all the enemies of the US, are super vilains (that's convinient).

the guy who create the first gun or the first plane is a super hero, every single one who let his print his name in history should be categorised as well as super hero or super vilain.

What a dream ! Iron man is a super hero as well, Goldorak too then, tortues ninja also, samuraï pizza cats ? well not everybody can make pizza and fight so I guess if Zorro is one, why wouldn't they be part of the super hero clan.

You keep defending the idea that super hero don't have to be compared with having super powers and all the time you're explaining that he is gifted with more intelligence and strength/fighting technics than everyone which making him special (like having a super power that others don't have ??.......)

It shouln't be important, doing special things is all that matter : ah ok, then the average guy saving a lot (enough by your standard) people is a super hero.

then what's left for a hero, it's the poor guy who can't save enough people or isn't enough heroïc then it's a hero.
Well Zorro was invented as a hero, you made it a super hero, even his creator would desagree with you (not that I'm complaining, but when you want you can decide if the creator is right or not) and now by your standard I won't ever been able to tell the difference between a hero or a superhero because where you'll decide saving 100 is enough anyone could say 5000 or 10000.

In fact the only logical and rational division to make between hero and super hero (if you consider that 2 category are a necessity, if not throw away to the garbage the super hero and stick with hero, or do the contrary (but it would be stupid having super hero and no hero at all)) is to decide that one with super power is a super hero and the one without is a hero, no matter what they'll manage to accomplish.

[.:K.I.N.G:.]

See you dont get the point, it isnt the powers that make one super, its the ability to inspire people and live up to the symbol people make you out to be that makes you super.

(click to show/hide)

Nach Libre

now that's a superhero

[maru7580]

you make a very good argument  and of those points i can agree with but in my book anyman who can stand side by side with the likes of the super powered members of the justice league and have no superpowers what so ever and go toe to toe with anyone one of the villians that give superman a hard time for example i have the trinty book of when super wonder woman and the bat first teamed up superman went after the amazon wonderwoman after razagul and batman true he wore a super suit and almost got killed but he went after bizzaro. in my book its not the fact of how many people you save or anything like that its doing whats nessisary and whats right regardless of what would and could happen to you tell me wiould anyone of you want to go up against the likes of bizzaro or doomsday?

[desertson]

Philisophical ruminations on what is or is not a hero notwithstanding, Batman is a superhero because he is the title character of a superhero comic.  It's just the genre in which he exists.

[Superjoker]

batman may be respected by fellow super heoes, but in society he sometimes is seen as a bad guy.

he is a super hero cos he has super qualities like, wisdom in technology and physical training he has paid for with his wealthy pocket.

i like bruce wayne as much as i like batman, he plays to be a rich snob playboy, no one would expect him to b bats.

btw. NINJAS ARE REAL just ask a japanese

batman was inpired by ZORRO, the original 

[Rage]

First off fear is a power.

Two
 i disagree wit cha on u having to have super power to be a super hero but here it go. Answer this will u.

If Forge is a superhero cuz he can build anything

and Batz, Ironman  can build anything but are not heroes

y aint these two super heroes?

Dont tell me its because they dont need powers to build stuff?

[yourdad]

Also Batman is called with the batsignal thats totally a fact in favor of superheroes (sorry for my english its like we said in my country "gacho"...bad)  i always liked to watch my name in the sky that would be cool! common dudes batz is a SUPERHERO! 

[Shingokusatsu]

Batman is called with a batsignal or the title says he's a superhero means only that the creators never could be wrong about something, and yet they are human so they can be wrong.

Forge is no way to be a superhero as any stupid normal beeing can create weapon, like the sentinel or even Nemrod (if I'm correct) where created by men.

Iron man is just a man in a robot, well, Tom Cruise in Top Gun was the best at piloting planes and he beat the crap out of everyone (allmost) in Mission Impossible 1, 2 and 3 (those movie sucks anyway) well I'm glad to know that he's now officialy  superhero, where the title of the films and the movie itself only speak about a hero.

Batman fought against aliens, giants and whatever you want, I'm not arguing about that, but he's in a team with at least 4 aliens (JLA :Superman, Wonderwoman, Hawkgirl, Martian Mannhunter)

In his time and own city : you have Joker (a man without anything different that your average criminal, except his insane, well all the guy who killed someone and where crazy are no supervilain) pinguin (ye he's "abnormal" because of his hands, don't tell me that someone with a physical difference is super or whatever, in fact  the physical difference don't change his humanity, he is normal) Two-Faces (like joker) Mr Riddle (also) who's left poison ivy ? Mr freeze (well maybe he's got super power) the guy who stop time (don't remember his name) well that's impossible by human standard but if he does it with a technological instrument then he's just like everyone.

KillerCroc ? well maybe this one is a supervilain

What' left for Batman, or Robin (now every circus guy/trapezist will be a superhero in a flash) nothing but "what if" I take a hero and let him fight agains supervilain.

the answer is : Dragon Ball Z : Hercule fight against Cell with a bazooka and whatever gadget his got, and also against Boubou (french name for Buu's fat form) and manage to convince Boubou to be "good" hey what a talent he's got there, he saved the earth at this time.

Hercule = superhero ? that's the conclusion ?

Well then why do you need this stupid distinction between hero and superhero (who's a hero then ? any name ? and why he's only a hero) I'm repeating myself but by your standard there are only heroes and yes some of them have super powers and yes some of them fought against Thanos, Doomsday etc etc which is irrelevant because succes or achievement don't prevent a hero to be (or not) a hero.

Now once again the argument of beeing rich ? yes batman is rich, then Spiderman is poor and no superhero ?
he studied, Spiderman is smart also, he learned to fight and is good at it, well Spiderman also (gained power and learned his own way to fight).
But it's not the intelligence that made spiderman a superhero and his power is greater than a normal human with the same physical habilities or same training, and that is not the case of Batman.

I can't follow you on the side of quantifying who's done what and when to see if he is a superhero, like The Colonel (hope this name doesn't exist for any marvel or DC, it would be a mere coïncidence) a man who has his own book, saving civilians, 1 or 2 maximum, (ok he's only a hero) and then in episode 15 he save the earth all by himself (now your talking, he's earned the title of superhero) and for the 100 episodes left save only or 2 people by episode:

Well can he loose the title ? hero or superhero ? who will decide ? the creator with the title ? whats wrong with you deciding whats wrong or correct.
We had 10 planets in our solar system, and out of nowhere a bunch of morrons that nobody's asked for their opinions decided that one of the 10 wasn't a planet:
But I learned and it's in my books that it was a planet and now it isn't anymore, who's right now and if there is a new reunion of those specialists and they say another things (like when they vote, half of them aren't there and they lost the vote).

So that's how it is ? the majority of voting people at one time is supposed to be always right ?
Let's take My Colonel fictive character and vote : if it's 50 hero 50 superhero and 1 white vote (in french it means the guy didn't choose any) then he's nor a hero nor a superhero, ok let's vote again after a week, hero's side are ill and you have 0 hero 50 superhero and 1 white vote = now he is a superhero
My only regret is that the superhero's side where there to vote, but hey maybe for next reunion the superhero's side won't be there and will change it (and I thought we had 10 planets so don't be so sure Colonel will be a superhero for ever)

I'm sorry but an arbitrary way to choose who's what or not is ajust absurd.

And for the planet thing I'm sure that if we cast a vote on internet like "Save the 10th planet" our so called astronomists will be oucasted by the numbers and the vote will say it's a planet (and I'll vote that it is, because it was until now and that's how I like it, but it doesn't mean that they where wrong)

The creator of my atlas book was wrong : what a shock or he was right after all, in fact a siple vote can change everything, so much for certitude.

Well I cast a vote : Robin hero or superhero (not the robin from TeenTitans but only the one who lives with Batman)?

[Rage]

Shingokusatsu

thats i lot said and u no what it aint that serious. In the word of Mr. J.

Why so seroius?

Well i can c sum people cant accept the definition of  heroes, superheroes, non-powered and powered alike so this is a losing coversation. . . . . . . . .

[Theendgamelv3]

1. Batman can beet up any ninja
2. NINJAS ARNT REAL!
3. Captain America does not have super powers, hes in top physical form, and hes really good at throwing a disk designed to be very aerodynamic. And that whole frozen thing, its called cryogenics, cap exprenced a once in a lifetime chance at natural cryogenics working.

Uh Ninjas are real........

The term Super Hero is very debatable. If you look at it literally Batman ISN'T a Super Hero. Look at from DC/Marvel's view, he is. I believe it is perfectly acceptable to look at Batman not being a Super Hero. People say normal people in DC or Marvel can't do what Batman does, they don't have to and infact do less and they are considered Super Heroes.

[Sub-Zero]

Batman underwent an almost superhuman ammount of training in his youth.
Can superman step backwards into a shadow and praticly disappear? No.

Can a nomral detective take a punch to the face from martan manhunter and still manage to kick that manhunter's butt? No

Can a nomral man take down the entire justice league by himself? No

Batman Is a superhero. Hes got the physical abilitys of Captain america, he just went the hard way to build himself up to peek levels and maintain it.

You still call captain america a super hero even though he's only at the peek of human physical potental, and not beyond it.

1 Superman can do better then that and use his superspeed

i dont think Bats has the same peak as cap america