It's a Damn Shame #2: Feedback - Give it, take it, do it right

[Jelux Da Casual]

Ok, I've been hearing of talk lately about how people (creators) here at IMT and feedback don't seem to mix. The two prime case examples that constantly come up are as follows.

Item 1) IMT people don't know how to take feedback. They get upset, they get defensive, etc.

Item 2) IMT users are afraid to give feedback because they are afraid of bucking the system. Everything has to be "+1" (WE DID NOT INVENT THAT, THAT'S MI's FAULT) or you'll feel the wrath of (insert mod or admin here).

Quite frankly, that bullcrap because if IMT didn't know how to take feedback, the EoH project would not be at 4.6, it would have stopped at the initial release. The problem here is -and always will be- the way that feedback is delivered and the way people take it. Now, I'm speaking completely unbiased from this point out, so if I seem like I'm taking shots at anyone, it's because I am. I'm taking shots at everyone equally. So let's begin.

It's one thing bring to attention things that should be change as a matter of opinion, or things that need to be change as a matter of gameplay. It's a total other thing to simply say, "This sucks or that sucks." The bottom line is, if people think that something is wrong or broken, EXPLAIN WHY! It doesn't take much effort to flame something, it does however take a little thought to explain problems that need to be addressed.

Also, there's nothing wrong with giving feedback that's straight to the point. Sugarcoating is nice, but if the problem doesn't get address, then there's no reason for it. Being straight-forward doesn't have to be offensive either. You're not gonna get banned or muted because you saw something that needs to be fixed, it's not in the nature of this forum at all.

Now about receiving feedback... It's seems that the people most offended about this aren't even the people who are making the item in question, but rather someone else who thinks that they have to step in and say something because they feel that the person whose creation that is under question cannot do so themselves. People, QUIT YOUR ****! Quit putting yourselves in other people's business when you had nothing to do with the matter in the first place, you only come off looking like a total ***.

And as for offensive critizism, what the **** are you trying to prove? This is freaking MUGEN people, if someone wants to make something, they have every right to do so. If you don't like the direction something is going, you can say so. But if things don't go your way, that does not give you the right to start degrading the individual/creation because you don't see eye to eye on something that HE/SHE is working on, not you. That's not something you can control, so don't try.

Sad fact is, this more than likely won't change anything, and that's a damn shame.

[Scar]

Damn straight brotha!!

Be polite and were alright..

Get out of hand and scar will just ban the hell out of everybody. (STAFF INCLUDED)

Nobody here is above the rules, not me, not Excursion and not even O Ilusionista..

I follow them and so should you..


EVERYBODY LOVE EVERYBODY


Except for Magus!!

[ANGELM]

Feedbacks are suppose to be about ways to improve on what you make. What gets me mad is that there is always that one person or people who criticize. You're right G Lux.

[DARKTALBAIN]

I agree with everything G Lux stated .

[♦ßlôödÑinjå♦]

No Arguments on my end.

[GaryCXJk]

Also, there's nothing wrong with giving feedback that's straight to the point. Sugarcoating is nice, but if the problem doesn't get address, then there's no reason for it. Being straight-forward doesn't have to be offensive either. You're not gonna get banned or muted because you saw something that needs to be fixed, it's not in the nature of this forum at all.

The problem is though that people don't seem to know how to even give feedback.

I've got a nice quote from the McLeodGaming forums (which I don't go to regularly, but I coincidentally stumbled upon this):

HOW TO GIVE PROPER CRITIQUE
AND POST ETTIQUITE
1. If someone's sprites are bad, they didn't EPIC FAIL, becasue that is f#%$& elitist of you to say, and probably wrong. An epic is something LONG. Failure would be total misunderstanding of most or any concepts the person did and objecting they did such concept.
2. A simple sentence saying "bad," "good," "These are good," or any variant is a waste of a post. You should tell them WHAT you like or WHAT you didn't like.
3. Make your post calmly, unless the person is beingcompletely stupid or ignorant.
4. Don't overuse smilies. I actually prefer to not use smilies.
5. Don't compare anyone's sprites to anothers. It just makes both people seem like asses.
6. Atleast SHRINK or delte the text in quotes if you are quoting more than two posts, or if a post has of text. Better yet, get rid of any quotes for posts other than the one you are posting about.
7. Not everyone's first, second, or third laguage is English. Please don't be a grammar nazi or get mad if they make of grammar errors if you still get the point. But totally raping the language should be fixed.

Seriously.

It seems that people forget point 3, or at least at MUGEN Guild. To be honest, forgetting point 3 makes you look like an elitist.

You don't have to sugarcoat your critique, but you can also be to the point without blatantly saying why something "sucks".

Now I don't know how it is here on IMT, but people just don't give critique here because they either don't want to sound elitist, or they just use MUGEN to play. When they do stumble upon faults, they just tell it, but most of the time, they won't notice. Likewise, people on IMT don't like to receive critique either because they're elitist, or the other person just can't give proper critique.

So here's your problem. And from what I've seen so far it's only a select few who can't take critique, and most are probably just content with how certain characters are. They either don't care about "faulty" characters (because, in all seriousness, there rarely is a faulty character) or they only care about annoying bugs, which aren't all that common.

[spiderclone]

i disagree with the "good" post, yes, i understand we have to elaborate when something is bad, that s a mistake i did a lot but when something is good.
okay, let s take an example, if anvil release jubilee, should i not post and not tell him his character is good?
should i elaborate? why waste time if it s good, i will just say it 's good. good feedback is a good thing, i would like to have it if i released something.

[Alexziq]

Now about receiving feedback... It's seems that the people most offended about this aren't even the people who are making the item in question, but rather someone else who thinks that they have to step in and say something because they feel that the person whose creation that is under question cannot do so themselves. People, QUIT YOUR ****! Quit putting yourselves in other people's business when you had nothing to do with the matter in the first place, you only come off looking like a total ***.

So who are you talking about?

I personally get sick of people who post something negative like a drive by shooting, and cause people to drop WIPs because of their pathetic desire to bring people down for no other reason to make themselves feel better like some cocky jerk.

I personally dont believe in sugarcoating, just use manners. People can sense when there is an air of (smart intent) to someones feedback.

I don't know if youre comment was directed at me, but when I was new, nobody took my side when people pulled that, and I just wanted to quit. Do we really want to see potential young creators get rolled on when theres no logic for it?

Other than that I agree with 99% of your post

[DARKTALBAIN]

So who are you talking about?

I personally get sick of people who post something negative like a drive by shooting, and cause people to drop WIPs because of their pathetic desire to bring people down for no other reason to make themselves feel better like some cocky jerk.

I personally dont believe in sugarcoating, just use manners. People can sense when there is an air of (smart intent) to someones feedback.

I don't know if youre comment was directed at me, but when I was new, nobody took my side when people pulled that, and I just wanted to quit. Do we really want to see potential young creators get rolled on when theres no logic for it?

Other than that I agree with 99% of your post

Somehow I missed all that . I agree with alexziq .

I've stepped in for a new creator that has gotten disgusted by underlying comments of someone who considers themselves better . I think that is a spoiler trait that stays with us . Because we usually try to help the new creators out . Z666 always goes out of his way to make sprite to demostrate since he doesn't explain well . JasonTodd usually tries to help a guy out . I used to sprite things for people but ended up getting too many WIP's because of it . So now I just explain things or make a tutorial to help them improve . Alexziq defends them so they don't quit .

trying to help out the new guy is much better than beating them up in my humble opinion .

Sometimes it works out & the guy goes on to create something great . Other times the new creator looses interest because of all the work involved in making a character that he didn't know about . It's a gamble . But no new creator should be blatantly put down just because an experienced creator thinks they are better . No matter what team I am on I will always think this way . Because everyone was new at one time & didn't know how to do things . My sprites are better than when I first started doing this  . If I was discouraged by negativity from experienced creators , I would have never been able to improve . Luckily when I got that attitude from people , my attitude kicked in & just made me improve my work .

So yeah , I will always to help & stick up for the new guy . Anyone of those guys can be the next Loganir , P.O.T.S. , Warasuki , etc ....

But that will never happen unless we give them a chance to shine .     

[Weapon x program]

@Darktalbain 
yes, sorry to help newbies.
Just all of you guys know we will be there when you need us, we may be busy, but we always deliver.
Wolvenom was just an edit to help ( by darkt ) and now he is the most anticipated char (after punisher and batman beyond  ) of the year.
Wonderman were just ten open source sprites by dark claw who was intelligent enough to make them open source so daraku, zvitor and me finished him.
so guys, when you feel like giving up, remember we are here and won t go away. 
and sorry Glux like spiderclone said (the guy is on fire today  ) good comments keep going on. 

[DARKTALBAIN]

@Darktalbain 
yes, sorry to help newbies.
Just all of you guys know we will be there when you need us, we may be busy, but we always deliver.
Wolvenom was just an edit to help ( by darkt ) and now he is the most anticipated char (after punisher and batman beyond  ) of the year.
Wonderman were just ten open source sprites by dark claw who was intelligent enough to make them open source so daraku, zvitor and me finished him.
so guys, when you feel like giving up, remember we are here and won t go away. 
and sorry Glux like spiderclone said (the guy is on fire today  ) good comments keep going on. 

 

Well if Batman Beyond is the most anticipated character . Good thing I have something to do with that also 

Yeah what  Jason said is true . For those that do not know the story , I'll sum it up for you  . A new creator came here & wanted to make a Wolverine with a symbiote . He just did a weird palette thing on a few sprites . So I made a couple of sprrites that looked similar to what I made . I showed him how to change the palette on Wolverine & since he was new , I copied & pasted things from Venom , with little actual sprite drawing . He liked what I did & thought he couldn't make the character like that . So he asked if I would just create him .  I had so much fun making those few sprites I decided to make the character . Mine is actually altered from those original demonstration sprites . Because I sprited things instead of just pasting from Venom . So if you are a fan of Wolvenom , hybasuku was the guy he actually got me to create this character . If it wasn't for that I would have never even considered making it . 

[ZVitor]

thats so simple...
in IMT we see more +1 comments then other forums, because imt have more members

[Z999]

've stepped in for a new creator that has gotten disgusted by underlying comments of someone who considers themselves better .

trying to help out the new guy is much better than beating them up in my humble opinion .

Indeed, there is no point in bashing the work of a new creator. We were all in the new guy position when we started, and even now we are still learning, skills don't build in a few hours. Rather than saying them what they did is wrong it's better to explain them what is wrong and why, and help them if you can, share what you've learned, that kind of things. It's a gamble as Dt said but at least it can bring something good and that's worthy enough for me.

thats so simple...
in IMT we see more +1 comments then other forums, because imt have more members

Nuff said ^^
Now i never saw the problem with the "+1, nice car" comment. Not everyone now the creation process and thus can give constructive, not everyone have the time to test the chars all the way. Of course constructive feedback is better but i don't see why people who just want to thanks someone for making a char they have fun with wouldn't be able to do so.

Anyway i agree with Alex, feedback is all about manners.

[dragonesku]

Damn straight brotha!!

Be polite and were alright..

Get out of hand and scar will just ban the hell out of everybody. (STAFF INCLUDED)

Nobody here is above the rules, not me, not Excursion and not even O Ilusionista..

I follow them and so should you..


EVERYBODY LOVE EVERYBODY

Except for Magus!!

If only that were true... 

Can you imagine if I said the words "damn" (like G Lux) in his first rant or like yourself in "Get out of hand and scar will just ban the hell out of everybody?"

Yeah...

I've been warned twice. Once by Acey for inappropriately stating my opinion on a Juggy Vs Hulk thread, which I understand was because I used inappropriate language, and  the second by "Yuri Jacobs" in the help thread for reasons I still ignore. I asked him/her why, he/she didn't reply.

IMT is a great place to showcase your artwork since it has so many members, but let's be honest Scar, the rules don't apply the same to everybody. And that's that.

 

[Jelux Da Casual]

Well, I didn't expect this rant to get must deliberation but apparently it's a topic people are interested in, for different reasons. So, let's take some time to make some responses.

Feedbacks are suppose to be about ways to improve on what you make. What gets me mad is that there is always that one person or people who criticize. You're right G Lux.

There nothing wrong with criticizing something, but the question is what is the motive? Are critizing the coding, the mechanics, or the concept? When creators get into a character, the concept of a character will rarely be changed. Take for instance, the departed O Ilu. He's taken of flack with the Late EoH Anita with people complaining that all it is is a sprite swap of a sword with a crap-ton of strikers. That's the concept, that's not gonna change. But it plays great. I like his Anita. I even like the concept, but that is a personal opinion.

The problem is though that people don't seem to know how to even give feedback...

...Now I don't know how it is here on IMT, but people just don't give critique here because they either don't want to sound elitist, or they just use MUGEN to play. When they do stumble upon faults, they just tell it, but most of the time, they won't notice. Likewise, people on IMT don't like to receive critique either because they're elitist, or the other person just can't give proper critique.

So here's your problem. And from what I've seen so far it's only a select few who can't take critique, and most are probably just content with how certain characters are. They either don't care about "faulty" characters (because, in all seriousness, there rarely is a faulty character) or they only care about annoying bugs, which aren't all that common.

I agree, good feedback giving is a commodity rare in this forum. I believe it's because we are not taken seriously here. All the "Hardcore" are at MFG, and although they sound elitist, especially to new creators who don't know what they are doing, what they say is benificial, which is why an EoH thread was posted there specifically for receiving more in-depth feedback.

Your latter statement is what I would refer to as the "Kong Syndrome." The only one of us that I've seen who relates in that catagory is him. That's all I've got on that.

i disagree with the "good" post, yes, i understand we have to elaborate when something is bad, that s a mistake i did a lot but when something is good.
okay, let s take an example, if anvil release jubilee, should i not post and not tell him his character is good?
should i elaborate? why waste time if it s good, i will just say it 's good. good feedback is a good thing, i would like to have it if i released something.

I never said that saying that something is good shouldn't be done. My focus was on developmental feedback because **** near every other forum thinks that all we do is +1 something, regardless of how broken something might be.

So who are you talking about?

I personally get sick of people who post something negative like a drive by shooting, and cause people to drop WIPs because of their pathetic desire to bring people down for no other reason to make themselves feel better like some cocky jerk.

I personally dont believe in sugarcoating, just use manners. People can sense when there is an air of (smart intent) to someones feedback.

THAT RIGHT THERE is what's missing in this rant. Prime example is "he who sees color loss" (I sure you know what I mean by that). Some people have nothing better to do then to belittle anyone who is trying to attempt to create something, trying to add themselves to the much smaller ratio of contributors to the mugen community. It's like they're basically saying ,"Do it right or don't bother".

We are on the verge of an entire new generation of MUGEN creators. If they all get this kind of treatment, where is the drive to become better gonna come from? We're just supposed to assume that they will find the inner strength to be better? And if so, how do you suppose they will act when they DO get good, if ever. Apprentice becomes Master and the cycle continues. That is indeed messed up.

If only that were true... 

Can you imagine if I said the words "damn" (like G Lux) in his first rant or like yourself in "Get out of hand and scar will just ban the hell out of everybody?"

Yeah...

I've been warned twice. Once by Acey for inappropriately stating my opinion on a Juggy Vs Hulk thread, which I understand was because I used inappropriate language, and  the second by "Yuri Jacobs" in the help thread for reasons I still ignore. I asked him/her why, he/she didn't reply.

IMT is a great place to showcase your artwork since it has so many members, but let's be honest Scar, the rules don't apply the same to everybody. And that's that.

 

Sorry you feel like you've been flagged.

I wrote the first "It's a Damn Shame" before I was even a moderator, and if you noticed, I only used it once in the rant because it's the crux of the point.

All other swearing I used I clearly censored out, so it's not like I was just blatently swearing or even swearing at someone thoughtlessly.