Mugen - 10 years from now

[O Ilusionista]

Ten years from now, do you still see yourself dealing with Mugen?


This question has always been in my mind. I never imagined that I would still be here 18 years later.

We are arriving in 2018. Today, most of Mugen's communities are either with little or no movement. The only exception I see is the MFG (and even then, way below what it once was). I know that topics talking "Mugen is dying" were already there in the 2000s, nor is it my intention here. It's just a curiosity.

One of the things that worries me is seeing Mugen losing the good creators (for whatever reason), veterans, at a faster speed than new creators arrive.  Added to this fact, it is very common to see lazy people coming in - those who do not bother to learn to work right, just want to "make" new content simply by doing (and often about creating someone else, just adding some effects - bad - here and there).

We have as example the "compilations". I even think it's a cool idea, but very seldom this is done correctly. In most cases, it's just a bunch of content all together, without the slightest standardization and worse - without even mentioning the authors name of everything that was used there. It is very common to hear the expression (especially here in Brazil) "I made this Mugen". I confess that I feel my liver twitch every time I see that expression, . Because the person has no idea what this means. It looks like the person INVENTED the engine ...

Looking at what has been released for Mugen in recent years, except for names you already know, I get the impression that overall quality is falling, be it the pictures or the programming. Basically, we have a rain of "edited", characters  using the same base again and again, with the same mistakes as always. This also happens in programming - you see characters with bad animations, common mistakes ... and misaligned sprites. It seems that some people just do not progress. The same mistakes are repeated constantly.


Part of this is the community's fault. Today, we have many users who just want new content (even if it's not new), regardless of the quality of the work. What matters is that no one has made this character yet - and this is especially true in Super Hero communities. I do not even need to name names ...

In the end, I wonder how far that goes. Being sincere, I myself do not have the same spirit as before. In parts because you're aging, in parts because it's all going to overwhelm you. You are getting full of all this.

There is still some hope, of course. I saw a few new creators doing cool stuff!

But I wonder if they will get the necessary (and deserved) support from users, from the community. Or you will care more about ONE MORE VERSION OF GOKU EVIL GOD LEVEL 20 ... And that's not Mugen's exclusivity - I see the same thing happening in OpenBOR.

Being sincere, there is a chance that I will be here in 10 years. But every day, that certainty is diminishing.

And you, do you think they'll still be here in 10 years?

- O Ilusionista

[metamutant]

  I pretty much agree with all your points.  I will also add that when mugen first started there wasn't a lot of fighting games for superheroes especially DC characters. But now with Injustice and other superhero fighting games for mobile devices, I believe a lot of people are going there to get their gaming fix.

Also nothing has hurt the mugen community more than these unauthorized and crappy sprite edits. And the mugen community was already a very small part of the gaming world, which keeps getting smaller. 

I see mugen going the way of dinosaurs in the next 15-20 years, unless something changes drastically.

[verz36]

this is great topic man. u should post it in as many forums to see more reactions.

[r7465]

The problem with MUGEN is that people love it only for the crossovers, watching Snakeman fight Bean or a Star Wars cameo fight Batman has always been though of as cool. The problem is, there aren't any characters from the games that get the kids interested. I play MUGEN with kids in my school bus, they're around the age of 8-12, while I'm older than them by almost twice as that. Those "cool kid" characters are also popular around MUGEN, look at the praise Niko Bellic and Carl Johnson got. Two games that are almost 10 years old.

I believe the way to revive MUGEN is to getpeople into it and to build characters at a faster pace. You got to finish 5 games in 5 years but needed the same amount of time to finish Robot Master Mayhem.

New MUGEN characters from relevant sources are needed. GTA, Assassin's Creed, the new Thor/Wonder Woman, etc. those characters attract fans of MUGEN. People who love crossovers just watch MUGEN on youtube and say "that's cool" then they download it. Full Games are also helpful, the negative light they're being put on is bad.

A few years ago, we had Big Chicken, Peter, Homer, Goku, everyone loved those. Now we need to get characters that will receive the same love.

Also an online mode is needed in MUGEN. I barely enjoy MUGEN compared to when I play against a friend. No idea how we'll figure it out but maybe one day.

MUGEN needs to have unlockable characters. There is no way to do it, but maybe a person does a build, and someone else downloads it, then unlocks those characters? Or characters Elecbyte made and you unlock it?

MUGENArchive kind of ruined the fun, everyone wanted rare MUGEN characters, MUGENArchive ruined the only "unlockability" objectives.

One last thing, MUGEN needs to have cutscenes for checkpoints and Fighter Factory needs to be more userfriendly, it is so difficult to import sprites. As a game developer myself (I use Game Maker), I found the sprite system there way more easy. You need to just open a "group" then put subimages and that's it.

People consider compilations to be bad, but if people just make a bit of edits on them, they'll be good.

Don't call me a hypocrite because I'm not helping, I'm just suggesting by the way.

[sky79]

Thats a lot of winjing without much of a solution offered "O".

Ok Ok that was a bit mean, but guys, come on. This is a hobby. Like building model ships, airbrushing naked chicks, flying kites or building RC cars. It doesn't have to be popular for you to enjoy it.

As for dealing with "N00bs" as they use to be called, it happens in every hobby that has a learning curve, some will take the easy way out.

The main problem I see in mugen are trash mods that abuse their 'power', dudes who can't tell the difference between managing and ruling over a forum. You aren't going to grow a community if every-time you have a bad day, you take it out on some 14 year old that edits Cyclops/Psylock.

You don't like a character's codes? make a patch, you don't like the sprites? PM me..... Less complaining, more couching.

cutscenes

Do-able via intros, I did a bit of that for my Diana and Cody.

[O Ilusionista]

@sky79: I received several answers to this question on my facebook and everyone understood that it was a question. The only person who decided to take an offensive stance - God knows why - was you. But strangely enough that motivated me to respond to you.

Thats a lot of winjing without a solution offered.

I do not know where you took it from, or what made you think I was after a solution - it was more of an account, an outburst. As your premise is based on a misperception, as a consequence, your points deriving from the premise are as wrong as. 

If I may be honest, your answer was a collection of fallacies - Argumentum Ad Ignorantiam, Strawman, Ad Hominen to name a few.

Ok Ok that was a bit mean, but guys, come on. This is a hobby. Like building model ships, airbrushing naked chicks, flying kites or building RC cars. It doesn't have to be popular for you to enjoy it.

As said above, you have built your arguments on a wrong premise. At no point did I say or plead or even demand that it have to be something that "I" would like. It's not a EGO thing.

The main problem I see in mugen are trash mods that abuse their 'power', dudes who can't tell the difference between managing and ruling over a forum.

I do not know if this was directed at me - and if it was, I prefer it to be done in a direct way, because I have always found indirect signs of weakness. But using the same kind of language (and logic) as you, I've always thought (and still think) that one of Mugen's biggest problems are users who complain more than they help - in particular, complain about moderators and administrators, foot on the floor as a child does with his father.

This type of user usually does not have the WORST idea of the work that gives to keep a forum working. And, like children, they do not know how to behave like an adult. They think they have the right to do anything, to say anything, in a puerile utopian delusion. Simply ... because they want to.

you don't like the sprites? PM me

Let's talk about ego now? So YOU are the solution to every single sprite problem?   

Less complaining, more couching.

Teaching and helping others was the thing I did most in Mugen's history. Just use the forum search field or even easier: open your "Fightere Factory" and press F1.

Your placement was very unfortunate. You're aiming at the wrong person.

[dev.]

Finally a cool topic to follow. First of all, I want to congratulate you for being so long with us and thank you for always releasing refreshing, quality content. I myself I'm closing to 10 years of mugen. And started creating something else than stages only 2 years and a half ago.
Now regarding your question, yes, I can see myself here in the next 10 years. Only thing that could make me stop is the time, as I only sprite in my time off.
In all my time I've been here, this is the worst period in mugen. Maybe there are number of factors that cause this downfall.
Personally I think newcomers who prefer the easy way and release cheap content (mostly mmv users. Heck, only mmv users). I believe they were bad informed, manipulated encouraged not to progress. This type of encouragement I see everywhere, even here. When people say 'cool', 'nice' or 'awesome' as feedback, when actually the work is crap. Spriter/ coder would think it's ok and never improve.
If I'm sad about something, I'm sad to see all those veterans leaving because of fanboys bastardize their works.
Anyways, again, cool topic. Will follow. 

[NX-MEN]

I will also be here in the next 10 years!! Also congrats for still being here with us O Ilu!! 

[sky79]

Your placement was very unfortunate. You're aiming at the wrong person.

The only part "aimed" at you was the very start of the comment. You don't like the way the community is seemingly going? fine. Whats your solution?

The rest is a critique, not "Argumentum Ad Ignorantiam", but fact. Example-
 MugenInfantry (uh Oh) who wouldn't catch a clue and thus fell into disrepute, then 'closed their doors' as it were.
 MFG, Its the gateway, no doubt, to many of the mods from MI (warts and all) became mods there and kept right on with the same trash behavior, you want to run off new people? send them to that 'nest of snakes'.
 MugenMultiverse, oh where to start.
I was an admin of a fantastic one called-
 MugenEvolution, but the 'Big Cheese' would start projects without finishing old ones, or even close them when they're clearly going nowhere. I talked to the guy again, never fallowed through on anything. I pumped out 9 stages and had 2 full characters in the works for a full game he was making, no dice. The forum died because nothing was happening, no reason to log-on if nothing is getting done.

As stated, every hobby has an "ebb and flow", its nothing to be concerned about. It was meant to comfort you. You and I are a bit older than most in this. We see how hobbies like D&D, Magic: The Gathering, heck Pogs are still out there, they have 'booms' and then they fade to backgrounds. Doesn't mean its dying.

Kudos for your vocabulary by the way 

[Arias]

I want to study and being able to make all kind of animation & not get stuck with just the one used for gaming, most likely continue learning 3D from where I left time ago, Unity too.

Probably will join other communities like EF-12, or that unreal engine if it's finished & the userbase grows enough to become mugen's spiritual successor.

I've been in mugen for almost 14 years, so I don't really see myself truly abandoning it, just being less active,
not that I'm very active to begin with, nowadays I'm in, mostly for the graphical part, so it wouldn't be much different from my current self.

[sky79]

 

Let's talk about ego now? So YOU are the solution to every single sprite problem?   

Its called "offering help", aid can be given to r7465, then whats wrong with it? Its been a while since I made a cut-scene; Look, my inbox is always open to everyone......... You included....... Free of charge.

Ego? Maybe, or perhaps I'm a nice guy...... likely both

[mulambo]

about quality... meh.
probably it's just because people are being too damn picky about things that creators get inhibited in their own creativity.
let's face the truth and make some distinctions between creators:

- rippers
- original creators
- mixed

Rippers can be described as .... well.. the word define the genre pretty good, I mean: they just copy exactly the char from an original game. So the quality of their work is judged according to the "exactness" of the final work. This kind of creators can't be really considered as "creators", imho. Ok, sometimes they're the most advanced coders as they know how to translate the behaviour of a character from an unknown engine (the one of the original game)... or sometimes they know it and then they're able to do it, anyway they're pro's if they manage to make the same exact thing (but possibly, imho, this is useful just for those who don't care about "inconsistency" as I've heard on another board). I mean: what's the point in making the same damn thing? I play the original thing if I want the same thing. So, rippers are fine for those who want many characters from different series and possibly with totally different graphic style and gameplay.

Original creators make the hell they want. Really. Sometimes they care about the style, sometimes they don't. It's difficult to give them a rating, but here I heard sometimes someone talks about "decent" creations just because some values are ok and others are not... pretty subjective, imho.

Mixed creators: well, a bit of this and that as they use frankenspriting or such techniques (but they're closer to rippers, imho, as they usually make char behave according to the gameplay of the original char they're editing).

About what mugen can become in 10 years? Oh well, I don't have precognition. I can only push my things on and on, despite being a style that has no quality, who cares, it's my fun. If others want to enjoy the fun, good for them and for me, if not oh well I guess I'll go to hell with all those mugen creators which endangered the reputation of an engine that never gets updated by official sources.

Yeah, that's what happens in 10 years : MUGEN 1.2

If it can cheer you up, though, remember: Fit of Fighting (MAME).

[WizzyWhipitWonderful]

Well, I definitely see myself messing around with MUGEN 10 years from now.

I'm a single male with MUGEN being one of my passions, the other is composing music for the MUGEN universe. It's been one of the best ways to spend my time and I don't see anything else that could take me away from the joys I get from MUGEN.  As long as people have the need to create and inspire, I will always be able to draw from that, and create new content myself. I'm currently learning how to code, so I'm getting into a whole new field of MUGEN content especially with going forward in my personal projects.

[O Ilusionista]

I still love Mugen. I still enjoy making stuff to Mugen, even if things aren't the same anymore.

Whats your solution?

Elecbyte could pop up again and release Mugen's source code.

[bambulin]

bueno, yo no estaba por aqui en los años buenos de mugen pero por la calidad de los trabajos de aquellos tiempos se deduce facilmente que el nivel actual es bastante inferior. Yo realmente no juego a mugen, yo colecciono personajes creados por distintas personas(me imagino que muchos tambien), y claro que me gustan que esten bien diseñados/dibujados/codificados pero no siempre es posible ni tiene que ser asi. Es solo un hobby del que cualquiera puede participar y aportar y no tiene que ser bueno en nada (codigos,sprites) simplemente querer participar. No me considero creador de nada, ni "artista sprites", ni codificador, nisiquiera participo demasiado en los foros y aunque soy miembro del equipo de MMV(esquivo las piedras) no estoy deacuerdo con algunas cosas que se ven por alli. Pero como dije antes esto es un hobby y lo realizo para relajarme y el dia que me canse lo dejare. PAZ Y BUENA SALUD PARA MUGEN Y PARA TODOS.
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Well, I was not around in the good years of Mugen but because of the quality of the works of those times it is easy to deduce that the current level is much lower. I do not really play mugen, I collect characters created by different people (I imagine many too), and of course I like them to be well designed / drawn / codified but it is not always possible or it has to be that way. It is just a hobby that anyone can participate and contribute and does not have to be good at anything (codes, sprite) simply want to participate. I do not consider myself a creator of anything, nor an "artist sprite", nor an encoder, I do not even participate too much in the forums and although I am a member of the MMV team (I avoid the stones) I do not agree with some things that are seen there. But as I said Before this is a hobby and I do it to relax and the day I get tired I'll leave it.
PEACE AND GOOD HEALTH FOR MUGEN AND FOR ALL.

[Magma MK-II]

Elecbyte could pop up again and release Mugen's source code.

There is no easy solution to attract more people into this hobby, but any I can think of involves Elecbyte crawling back from whatever hole they are.

MUGEN gives a lot of freedom to content creators yet it is very limited at the same time. There is just so much stuff the engine could support (animated portraits, mid-game cutscenes, stage intros, continue screens, etc), and if Elecbyte isn't interested the fans would be more than eager to make mods to add such new features and more.

[verz36]

while I agree with a lot of what have been said so far. mugen wont get better even if elecbyte comes back. yes the engine can be better and if its gets some update that will come in handy for sure but in reality, mugen is nothing without creators. I remember the good times, people wanted to create a great product, many pushed themselves to their limit to create. we got many cool characters back then. but the drama got the better of them. I always marveled at the excuses that some come out with just to get their way, ( you stole from Capcom so I can steal from you, blah, blah, blah...). and when call out they get offended, lmao!!!!. I really think that what have mugen on the downside is the many people that don't care about creators and that don't respect them.

 what lies at head its just a bunch of recolored and rebranded characters that for some reason been getting love from a lot of people with their OMG +1... this is taking over and those creators that used to spend so much time making something that feels new, are just quitting. we have lost many creators to this behavior and we keep losing more. I been saying it and its going to get to the point of private characters.

 there will always be new talent, but lets face it, those that really put the time will stop soon and let those lazy ones rule. its the internet, and people will do whatever they think they entitle to.

 10 years from now I think I still see myself spritting but who knows, maybe private. I love the art part of this hobby. since I was 9, I been drawing and into art. I have done many different form of art, from graffiti to oil paintings. and I think I wont stop doing something I like no matter what. if I have to go private to have joy creating then so be it.

[Slivern]

I admit I skimmed through much of this thread, but if MUGEN won't change, and the MUGEN community persists on redirecting new creators to the same old tutorials that have information written badly and have no good way of getting people into understanding how the code works...I'd much rather have it be killed.

And if I were to give myself the opportunity, I'd kill it myself. Remake a spiritual successor to the engine that is built using Python rather than C++ (C++ is trash that is only relevant because of Unreal Engine 4) while Python was recently declared the #1 programming language that is the most in demand for 2017. I already came up with the name of this imaginary engine of mine and made sure the number of letters in it was true to the engine's name...I just can't build it because it's currently out of my expertise. Plus, building an engine takes a very long time, and I don't like how people have misconceptions about learning a programming language. I was told by someone that programmers think in mosaics and I'm thinking to my self, how is that even true? I had one of the lowest GPAs ever in Community College yet when I got into Python, I did SO well.

I'm rambling about something that has nothing to do with the topic at this point, but seriously, I would be willing to kill the MUGEN engine entirely and render it obsolete. As a side benefit to getting people into REAL programming and coding, it may also have the chance of creating jobs! Maybe we should make a github repository or something to make this engine real? I don't know.

[O Ilusionista]

I think you don't understand how Mugen works. In fact, your words show a person who apparently failed to understand how things work in Mugen and got bitter about it. If that was the case, it was more your fault than the engine fault.

and the MUGEN community persists on redirecting new creators to the same old tutorials that have information written badly and have no good way of getting people into understanding how the code works.

This is new creators fault, to be honest. If old creators could learn it when it was DOS based (Airedit was a pain), almost no GUI based tools, with no youtube, almost zero tutorials and support from the Elecbyte... the new creators can do it. But the problem is that many new programmers are lazy. They want everything easy, in hand, already chewed for them to just copy and paste. Today, there are dozens of tutorials, both printed and to be watched on Youtube.

built using Python rather than C++ (C++ is trash that is only relevant because of Unreal Engine 4) while Python was recently declared the #1 programming language

This is very personal. I know many excellent coders which just HATE Python ( I don't know it very well, but I like what I saw).

already came up with the name of this imaginary engine of mine and made sure the number of letters in it was true to the engine's name...

For me, MUGEN meaning was easy to understand: MUltiple Game ENgine. Or the japanese origin of the word: Infinity.

I don't like how people have misconceptions about learning a programming language

Funny enough, is exactly what you are doing regarding MUGEN 

As a side benefit to getting people into REAL programming and coding

I saw that coming, . The old "real programming" argument. Its just pure elitism. I know many programmers which started in Mugen, learnt a lot of code logic in Mugen and then used this knowledge in other languages (where I include myself).

Another funny fact: Mugen, even with its limitations and fails, some times can make better products if you compare with the "real programming".

Again: its clear to me that you had failed in learning Mugen and is bitter about the engine.

[laspacho]

I think mugen will always be around.  I've watched over the years as it died down then new creators come around and it becomes more lively again.
It's sad when a old creator retires since all their great knowledge and creativity are lost.
I agree there's more character clones nowadays, people just need to play around and learn and hopefully the new creations will start to get better.
I think if Mugen got another update, adding built in tag support, popularity would surge again.

[O Ilusionista]

I think if Mugen got another update, adding built in tag support, popularity would surge again.

Too bad Elecbyte seams to not care about the engine. Neither have focus on doing REAL useful things to the engine.

Take Zoom as example. Its cool? Yes. But INTERACTIVE STAGES would be way better and useful.

[Magma MK-II]

Honestly, crappy/lazy/clone characters aren't really a issue. Sure, they'll get "nice char +1", but after that people just forget them. It's much like the music scene nowadays, we get a torrent of trash which makes instant success, but after a year or so nobody even remembers them anymore.

Say, what's the first character people mention when discussing Mugen? Dragon Claw.

[Slivern]

This is new creators fault, to be honest. If old creators could learn it when it was DOS based (Airedit was a pain), almost no GUI based tools, with no youtube, almost zero tutorials and support from the Elecbyte... the new creators can do it. But the problem is that many new programmers are lazy. They want everything easy, in hand, already chewed for them to just copy and paste. Today, there are dozens of tutorials, both printed and to be watched on Youtube.

I'll just forget about my arguments and share you my learning experience instead. I was burnt out from college work when I posted my message.

I've stumbled upon a good few MUGEN tutorials over the last few years that have at least helped me create my first few characters, but all of them were incomplete. I tried looking to members of MFG for help because MFG these days is more active to me than the other MUGEN communities including IMT. I'm glad that they were helpful in a few problems I was able to solve thanks to them.

At the time, I was a believer in autodidactism (being self taught) and I wanted to be a successful self-taught programmer once I became more serious with my career. But as time passed, I became discouraged and lost when I was learning Python and I put it off for several months. I had a similar problem with MUGEN but it lasted for years. I don't believe I belong to the bunch of programmers that are lazy, but a comprehensive series of tutorials which leads to a complete MUGEN character is something I've always wanted.

Back then, I wanted one surrounding how to make a KoF MUGEN character but I don't care anymore if it's KoF or not. And, more specifically, I was hoping to find a tutorial other than the one provided in the Elecbyte documentation on how to utilize MUGEN's code and explain how certain parts work. When I asked for advice from some of the MFG members who have had experience making KoF characters, they encouraged me to take a KoF character, mess around with the code and figure things out from there.

I felt highly discouraged after that because I'd rather have a straightforward approach towards learning MUGEN development, and have information beforehand that I can use so I can mess around with my code later. I'm not ashamed to say that I am still bitter about how things work in MUGEN, but I'm also not angry about it either. I just wish I had a support system from a few members of the MUGEN community and have a "friendtor" relationship with some of them. No matter how bitter I am right now, I still haven't given up yet and I still intend on putting Kyo SP from KoF '99 Evo into MUGEN.

[O Ilusionista]

Reading your post, you had proven what I stated above. Some people blame the engine by they own faults

I don't believe I belong to the bunch of programmers that are lazy, but a comprehensive series of tutorials which leads to a complete MUGEN character is something I've always wanted.

There is a lot of sources to learn from, really. Here is one:

Its a complete Mugen tutorial.

Try to push yourself, do not take the easy route.

[Slivern]

How was I blaming the engine using my own faults? It should have nothing to do with what I was saying or else I must have went on a tangent. In any case, I was saying that it was hard for me to learn alone.

Also, I should point out that video you posted was made back in 2012. It's 2017.  Five years since that video has been made, and getting people into developing content for the engine hasn't improved since, and the tutorials themselves haven't changed much either. I know who Ryon is and I like his tutorial series, but how should I know that everything he says is up to date and still applicable?

How can I convince you to put yourself into my shoes for just a moment to see, even if it's just vaguely, where I'm coming from? I can push myself alright, but if I don't have a plan or direction, I simply cannot get anywhere, let alone maintain a consistent process of improving and developing content that's better than the last. I'm still not sure if I'm being clear here. But I really don't like doing things alone anymore unless I have some form of clarification which will help me.