Moving the M.U.G.E.N. commuity forward

[Yung Kratos]

Hi this is Yung Kratos. Some of you guys may know me from back in the day. Over the past year or 2 I have been busy Starting my degree in Game Design starting a family and getting involved in the Fighting Game Community. I didnt visit IMT very often even though this was my first home of the internet. I did however hear about M.U.G.E.N. in the fighting game community and what i heard was negative and or confused rants.  All of this struck a chord with me because I know of some very talented artists in this community. I understand the strides all of you make to improvement every day. I understand the sheer amount of work that goes into each and every project. It hurts me to think that we work to make fighting games and that that community shuns this one. Hell youtube and the entire internet shuns us.
I thought about what needs to be done to change that. What I realized is that most projects are about the characters not the gameplay. Most of the charm in this community however comes from the authors personal touch on the character. So I thought why not go to SRK and open up a thread asking "What would be in the perfect fighting Game". Now there's no way we wouldn't get a million mixed opinions but it would be a start a sort of olive branch and a way to get them involved. Then once we design characters and there playstyles we get feed back on that, we get feed back on balance, feed back on the system. We engineer something thats really going to be remembered played publicly by groups of friends and paves a new way for how people think of this community.
So Please guys tell me some of your thoughts. Who else thinks creating an fgc engineered game is a good idea.

EDIT:

I've started a thread asking the community what they think would go into the perfect game you can view it here

http://shoryuken.com/forum/index.php?threads/what-elements-would-make-up-the-perfect-2d-fighting-game.150974/

[Acey]

I know exactly where you're coming from but the problem isn't mugen. You may have noticed a certain portion of fighting gamers spend large parts of their time complaining about what the big companies have done wrong. Every gamer wants something different and every company ends up being trolled. Mugen as a community is not exempt from this and the trolls are always the loudest voices.

Here we run an organized, quality website. Then each of us can stand up against the trolling when it happens. Those are my thoughts.

 

[-Whiplash-]

I think we get this kind of opinions because people see the stupid bad chars like scrub ken, and the stupidly broken things like psycho schredder.

I'd be all for this, but then again I'm not very good at fighting games and I can't code at all.

(however, I want to make a shuma gorath...)

[Yung Kratos]

I know exactly where you're coming from but the problem isn't mugen. You may have noticed a certain portion of fighting gamers spend large parts of their time complaining about what the big companies have done wrong. Every gamer wants something different and every company ends up being trolled. Mugen as a community is not exempt from this and the trolls are always the loudest voices.

Here we run an organized, quality website. Then each of us can stand up against the trolling when it happens. Those are my thoughts.

 

Thats exactly what these 2 communities have in common is that neither are completely satisfied with the mainstream gaming situation. We all know that there is something betetr waiting to be made. Who is to say that we cant make it, together. As for the site goes im well aware that IMT is probably the pinnacle of the mugen of the community. Largely thats because of you. Long before capcom even though about making another entry in the vs series, hell before sf4 was even released YOU and a team of your peers decided you were done waiting and did something about it. Your a prime example that members of this community can have organized ideas. But whos to say it needs to stop there? Who says The community needs to fit in? Why not stand out?

also
@Whiplash
Thats fine man im still in the learning process as well thats not gonna stop us. We can still open that line of communication gather info etc. If you have passion about M.U.G.E.N and fighting games then theres a place for us all in this movement.

[Yung Kratos]

Just as an update The thread has gotten a good number of views and posts you guys should really check it out.

[Jelux Da Casual]

, one thing they all DO seem to be agreeing to is something we can't deliver, net code.

[Tha Lando ( Le CROM )]

that was some pretty cool read yung kratos. 

i as a fighting gamer am one of those various people that i like what i like. yeah i am guilty of complaining about what companies do because i come at it from a consumer standpoint moreso than business wise like i used to do long time ago before my mugen years. i love what Mugen represents as the true creativity that can go into it. Acey said of what i would spend 10 hours just to say in shorter words. . But i will not be denied my essay! . nahhh just kidding.   but you do say some very cool things i can def agree upon. Mugen has of influence wether people like it , hate it or dearly love it.I love Mugen, ever since i found it years ago. there maybe be some people that troll and act outlandish but the bulk of the people i come across here and other spots i am glad that i am still in it. gonna keep my eye on the thread.

[Acey]

that was some pretty cool read yung kratos. 

i as a fighting gamer am one of those various people that i like what i like. yeah i am guilty of complaining about what companies do because i come at it from a consumer standpoint moreso than business wise like i used to do long time ago before my mugen years. i love what Mugen represents as the true creativity that can go into it. Acey said of what i would spend 10 hours just to say in shorter words. . But i will not be denied my essay! . nahhh just kidding.   but you do say some very cool things i can def agree upon. Mugen has of influence wether people like it , hate it or dearly love it.I love Mugen, ever since i found it years ago. there maybe be some people that troll and act outlandish but the bulk of the people i come across here and other spots i am glad that i am still in it. gonna keep my eye on the thread.

One thing I learned in college was to write more with less words. It's not easy!

@ G-Lux - on-line capabilities would completely change the face of mugen for the better.

[O Ilusionista]

I know exactly where you're coming from but the problem isn't mugen. You may have noticed a certain portion of fighting gamers spend large parts of their time complaining about what the big companies have done wrong. Every gamer wants something different and every company ends up being trolled. Mugen as a community is not exempt from this and the trolls are always the loudest voices.

Here we run an organized, quality website. Then each of us can stand up against the trolling when it happens. Those are my thoughts.

 

I agree on Acey on that. Plus, I would like to make some comments:

I am here since December 1999 (Mugen started somewhat between June/July of that year) and I can say that I had heard many things about Mugen: good and bad things.

Back at that time, the things was way difficult than today. Sprites was very hard to rip, only command line tools, DOS engine and so on. Elecbyte started all this to be something you would learn from the other people, on a colaborative way.

But the things turned into something really different: People "owning" stuff (which were copyrighted from game companies), people saying that  they works on game companies like Sony (, good old days...), turning into Police -the so old and bad Mugen Police, which thinked its right to say what people should do and should not do. Mugen Guild was one of the most place where this "rule" was beeing active, plus another big forum which I can't remember right now.

The two main reasons of disgrace to Mugen are the two main power of it (controversal, huh?): The so-called Communities and the users. Not everyone, but I can point some.

On the forum side, there are some foruns which grew way too big, and they started to think they are Police (or God, to be exactly), where they  can say what is right or wrong, who is cool and who is not, who is saint and who is a sinner. All of this on a place full of the most rotten feelings from a human being: racism, xenophobism, homofobia, bullying, hate propaganda, power abuse and so on.

On the user side, the worst 3 things are:

- just leechers, ask/begging for chars (like OMFG MAKE DANTE FOR MUGEN PLZ), whiche replies things like OMFG and which doesn't HELPS AT ALL. They just want to get more and more content, never is enough. MOAR MUGEN PLZ...

- Ball lickers. People, no matter if you show that there is something wrong, if done by the idol of them, you will be judged to death. And no matter if a material is horrible. If you have never been converted before, anything is fine.

- Lazy people vs Accurate bitches: one side does nothing to improve, keeps making crap over and over and over (without even the required sprites) and the other side blame you if you put a velocity like 6.5 when the right would be 6.48909845645645789.

And many other things.

Hell youtube and the entire internet shuns us.

And...? You can't take people seriously at Youtube. Its the place with more stupid people per meter square

Long before capcom even though about making another entry in the vs series, hell before sf4 was even released YOU and a team of your peers decided you were done waiting and did something about it.

Just a fix here: IMT had released some cool projects, but MVC3 idea was born at MugenBR, from Mugenesis team.


Sorry if I sound a bit rude, but is the way I think.

[overlordnick]

, one thing they all DO seem to be agreeing to is something we can't deliver, net code.

@ G-Lux - on-line capabilities would completely change the face of mugen for the better.

i wouldnt think it would be too chalenging to turn mugen into a multiplayer/ pvp flash platform
i have seen multiple flash games that allow you to upload your own things to use (chars and stages for our use)
i guess technicaly this wouldnt be mugen anymore, but it would make online pvp possible w/o making you let someone you may not know very well take control over your computor
(allso i cant make flash stuff so honestly i dont really know what i'm talking about just thought i'd throw in my 2 cents)

edit:

- just leechers, ask/begging for chars (like OMFG MAKE DANTE FOR MUGEN PLZ), whiche replies things like OMFG and which doesn't HELPS AT ALL. They just want to get more and more content, never is enough. MOAR MUGEN PLZ...

o, i'm hurt *fake cry*

[Slivern]

I EXTREMELY agree with what Yung Kratos is saying. Ever since I got into MUGEN, I've been discovering these characters I've been anticipating to play with when the time comes for them to come out but then they all turn out so disappointing. Not only that, the nature of MUGEN tends to not balance things out at all. Think of the God characters, think of the AI that's been made for these characters as well. I'm not an adept fighting gamer, and I've had my butt beaten by Evil Ken and Ryu so many times that it made ME want play a God character just so things balance out. It's just...so...so...

Because the community also has creations that come from existing fighting games, to dukyye these characters out in a fight would have ended rather unfairly, with not only the lack of work on the AI on the creators part, but also some of the limits that these characters have, and the different game play styles that these characters exhibit from their own respective fighting games. I agree that IMT has been the pinnacle of the community; I've seen so much better here than anywhere. However, we all do need to step up our game a bit (literally) and evolve. With MUGEN 1.0 having new additional features we can all mess around with, I think that we really need to take advantage of these and revamp the overall structure of MUGEN. And you know what I believe makes a great fighting game? This is what I think: balance, cleanliness, stability, compatibility...originality. I could name so much more.

And what makes a great MUGEN creator to me? A creator with passion, hard work, reliability and can be precise, faithful, open-minded, optimistic AND a creator that also possesses knowledge, skill, craftsmanship, organization, time AND can take criticism of all forms constructively and withstand whatever negative perception of such a person is thrown at him/her with wisdom. This person can turn his failures into one of his strengths and accomplishments; anything that can be associated with an artist and a man in the game developing field to me makes a MUGEN creator great.

Because I've said so much, that person isn't just great anymore. We may have some of these traits, but we are missing many. Even one of most aspiring, the late Reubenkee, is missing those things as well. And let's not forget having human relations to establish a better collaboration with others and getting along with the community and availability for additional MUGEN content for the community to enjoy. Everything that was available before is now disappearing.

As a critic, I believe that we have the potential to evolve. So my point is: I agree with Yung Kratos and believe the MUGEN community needs to move forward. It's a new decade. Why not take advantage of it?

[Rage]

[Tha Lando ( Le CROM )]

Hmmm everyone makes many valid points. love mugen discussions of deep converstaion topics.

what Mugen means to me: Mugen to me is a virtual playground that i dreamed about when i was just a young boy back then wanting to make video games and drawing stuff like moves for made up characters. Now old and a parent and been around for quite awhile i see of progression in mugen on one end but how in some ways still destructiveness in another. of the ignorance comes not from forums idea but the people in them. i laughed when i heard of for the first time "Mugen Politics'.  .  I wondered at a time a few years ago where was the concept of what Mugen actually stood for gone to? i am glad i got to see for myself that there are people who will actually help you, teach you and build great friendships within the mugen community that arent like those who do all those things O illusionsta listed thats are the down side of the mugen experience.  i love to uplift creators i see doing things, i try to envision their works as just that, their works. there is far more that mugen can do in the mugen community and be taking further but where is the question and at what line do we draw it or cross it? one thing i am glad we dont do is everyone only looks towards the pro creators to make mugen only products, why? cause then we would only get what they chose to wanna do. Its also hard to have balanced mugen cause everyone codes differently and what works for some doesnt work for others styles and tastes. The minute you do one particular way you lose originality a bit and originality as well comes with flaws, errors and of updating to get it the way the creator want it and the way it could function better. People i think have lost a bit what mugen meant for a time, its was made to create your way following  guides to create workable content, after that you can go apenuts and make the most outlandish things , rules came about when forums and community came into play.

IMT for me is home. i love it especially the way its progressing.
I remember when i thought that forums was both great idea and totally bad. why? i saw the potential for networking and passing down the line of knowledge from one person to another was an outstanding idea. but on the flip side i saw tons of super negativity, biasness, bashing, and the oh so favorites "mugen god and i am so and so so what i say everyone will listen " people rear their heads around.  I believe the community will move forward when people can as well learn to network better , come with new innovative tools and ideas to push what the engine can do and not stick to the same ole same ole and new creators come with even more original ideas and works.

I like what Silvern said as what thinks is a great mugen creator, and for me , the best mugen creators are the people who know its just a great hobby, have fun, help, take time to school people who really wanna learn and love what they are doing and try to do the best they can so people can enjoy the mugen experience for new generations like my nephew who wants to learn. my advice to him was to just understand what Mugen was bult for. to enjoy creating for yourself first and try to get good at it as much as you want to and can for the time he wants to be in it.He asked me a cool question the other day, Uncle L, why you making mugen stuff? my answer, 3 things, one, the stuff i like aint really around the way i want so i wanna make them and have fun playing them, 2. friendships i have built over the time i been really active. and 3rd to hope what i will make openly for others to enjoy will hopefully enjoy them.
Mugen is always progressing not just to me with mugen 1.0 but me as a person in the communityi have really love. the same ole weirdos and crazies are here and keep coming day by day and will always be around to troll and bash and whatever they do but its the people i associate with online in the forums and offline that keep my personal mugen experience fun and not to die for mugen cred status but to be hopeful to see what is to come next from the old schoolers to the newbies like myself at wanting make stuff and actually doing them with of great help from good people both knowledgable and downright fun. I really hope to see where Mugen will be in the next 5 years.  


OOOOK my fingers hurt .....dang essay...i am so done.

edit: AWESOME POST RAGE!!! ..plus i used just one finger to type this time.  

[A!]

i wish i wasn't dyslexic so hard to read these , but from what iv read so far use all make a have wrote some great stuff.

Ball lickers. People, no matter if you show that there is something wrong, if done by the idol of them, you will be judged to death. And no matter if a material is horrible. If you have never been converted before, anything is fine.

I know what you mean, i see this all the time 

Lazy people vs Accurate bitches: one side does nothing to improve, keeps making crap over and over and over (without even the required sprites) and the other side blame you if you put a velocity like 6.5 when the right would be 6.48909845645645789.

I never do accurate capcom/snk CLSN boxes but I do decent CLSN boxes, does that make me lazy? idk.

[G.P.O.A - GatlingPunchRalf]

The topic actually hits on quite a personal note for me TBH. I joined IMT as an up coming spriter with lots of free time and willingness to learn from the best. This was the beginning of my high school career, of course, and as I grew in age and grade level, my time to try and live up to that important and dearly wanted dream of becoming a creator fell apart from lack of practice in spriting and free time to try and pick of new tid bits of information. HOWEVER, I can proudly say I have not become a lurkmore here BECAUSE of the fact that you guys here are such an amazingly in depth community and more like a familial unit that anything else. My dream to create a character all my own is still there, but its just taken a backseat to the fact that I WANT TO HELP THE PEOPLE HERE MAKE THEIR CHARACTERS MORE THAN ANYTHING ELSE; Ask people such as Esk, Rage, and anyone else, and they'll say I've given constructive criticism more often than not. I've grown up to the point where I've realized that, although I still have that all important dream, it might be too far out of my reach for it to happen. However, it's not like I can't help others reach that dream in place of me. I haven't become selfish and hateful of the MUGEN community and more importantly IMT like most every other person outside of us has, rather I've become determined to make IMT better than it was when I first came here.
>END BIO<

[Yung Kratos]

Well i suppose The biggest issue of the past is lack of understanding of the games which most creators emulate from. Marvel vs Capcom 2 for example as fun as the game was and as much as i love the game, it was a random cash in with not really all that much thought as to what was in it. 3rd strike was a prime example of what happens when you make a new system but dont care to flesh out each characters role within that system. CvS2 while probably had the most time and care put into it of any game in the last 15 years, still had cases of characters and mechanics that were there just for the sake of being there.
What I propose is not emulation though. Because you cant fix the problems of the original property. I do understand this is a hobby. Just like with any hobby though you can be good at it or bad at it. Playing basketball is a hobby but theres a big difference between shooting baskets in your driveway and playing for the Mavericks.

@Illusionista
Its great to have you a part of this discussion. I know You have been around a very long time and have been everywhere so its great to have gotten your attention with this topic. Lol and i do understand the origins of the mvc3 project i was just highlighting one creators accomplishments.

[Tha Lando ( Le CROM )]

good post  bro.

i have a kinda question of sorts. In what are you actually proposing in streamline detail? 
I dont care as much for game emulation in mugen. i do like to get characters  and stages that are from games to see what either same company wise gameplay they are or more crazy and cool innovations in moves , fx and gameplay mechanics  they put in. even in the grahical look of of stages and the animations put in. its all interesting. Me i like what some games capcom has done with incorperating fresh kinda ideas in their games like SF3 3rd strike with the parry system. its a good technical touch and i have seen many great parry battles and timing with those are keynotes. same goes for cvs2 with the grooves. great touch to add in different ways to play mechanics.  With all these games with various gameplay mechanics  there will always be a 50/50. there will be those who like it and there will be those who hate it. its a personal preference. I can be happy with just the old school way with just blocking and no other fancy tech moves.

There is of  different gameplay in fighting games. in my roster i have mvc, cvs, rage of dragons, kof, freestyle ,infinite style, all types . so ..how balanced would you think my mugen is? . Its is very hard in mugen to get that with such diverse styles and coding styles that arent one particular way. its because people do find other unique was to code that we find in mugen progressing being able to not only mimic what has been done company wise  but as well new ones. I think when i get to coding AI that will be the bread and butter of being a creator. I believe that is where of the balance lies at since we dont get to play online against each other , we  just get to play either with nearby friends and fam or cpu . I have played against characters that range from barely doing much to one that are total relentless and take full advantage of the coding put in them. The cpu to me will show you just how much skills are at coding it. .

true too this is a hobby and its always up to those who wanna take full advantage of it to be very good or to know the general basics to make decent content. I must say tho using basketball tho to demonstrate ias a pretty cool idea but there is a misunderstanding with that when i guess using as an example to mugen. 3 levels . basketball as a hobby is just fun to play and not to wanna be great at it but able to play and enjoy but some people are just very good or practice cause they choose to get good or naturally gifted at the sport. next there is competative, some of those who play it at this level dont look at it as a hobby as much, ( i used to play for church and school) its a competitve nature and to hone even greater skill for various reason, to go to college, notoriety and even to make it to the pros. 3rd and last level , paid player level. these people, its a job, they are paid to play at top level to not just bring in fans and sell merchandise but to win, they have to, no question or they dropped and dont make their money for their team, their owners and their fans. this is no hobby for them. its nothing really like mugen creating as a whole but there are creators maybe in spirit who may embrace this as their way. but it is not the standard. it is a hard made choice.

I believe Mugen progression  has been underway and steadily moving forward. anyone can aspire to be any of the 3 levels . just know it always takes a backseat to your outside life and not to be taken personal. i have seen people leave mugen for some of the most crazy reasons and others i relate to and can seriously understand. i enjoy everyone i come in contact with wether a great cool friend, funny people, people who want to show you the ropes and do it in a pupil and teacher way with giving sound instruction and i just laugh and ignore ( ok i will mess with them back in on point mindgames and jokes sometimes  ) the trolls and sarcastic behind wipes who say whatever cause they can type it and have egos pretty much for no reason at all.

but i think Mugen is the face of the online 2d fighting game brand and we are looked at by the companies either for inspirations in their own games or for feedbacks. So cheers to Mugen and all those who enjoy it for the friendships and mugen family, want to get good at it  for creations and have fun in it.