MUGEN forums with the "all posted is open source" rule.

[GaryCXJk]

I'm currently compiling a rules tab for my website which states that certain sites are blocked from adding my resources that are not open sourced.

With that I mean this. Some sites now have a rule that every resource posted is now open source. Everybody can use your codes without asking permission, of course with proper credits, but still. This with the reason that "people can easily compile their own characters". Since I don't agree with this, I'm disallowing these sites from having my resources on their forums as an update notice. Only the open source stuff may be posted there.

The reason I'm giving is simple. It's nothing elitist or egocentric, it's more of the fact that I don't want people to work with broken stuff. I am one of many programmers and coders with messy code. Mostly I can't even see trough my very own code. And with such code, there are always faults which breaks the character. Until I'm fully satisfied with my work, I'm not open source it.

I mean, wouldn't you be pissed off when you work on your character based on my Bas the Teddybear, and suddenly you realized I've released a newer version with a lot of bugfixes a few days before you completed your own character? First of all it's not fair, second, people will start to dislike your project because it's heavily broken, adding to the not fairness, and third, I would look like an bunghole because I fixed the character after other people worked so hard on their own characters, adding to the addition to the unfairness.

Also, I also respect other creator's opinions, who don't like their stuff to be open source, and to express my support towards them I've made this decision. I mean, it's actually kind of rude and disrespectful to disobey the creator's wishes with this rule, and I'm making my stand. I feel that others need to take this stand as well, but that's really up to you.

So you see, I really thought well about it. I too believe in open sourced resources, I encourage it, but sometimes you do need to block content off from others. So that's why I'm disallowing certain sites from using my characters and stages.

Anyway, so far I've only got Mugen-Infantry, but I really need to know every site known. It's also the reason why I'm only posting updates on this site from now on, since that rule doesn't exist on this site (yet).

[kamekaze]

mugen-infantry doest have a "all posted is open source" rule. as far as i know Mugen-guild does.

[GaryCXJk]

Code: [Select]

In order to cut down on the confusion we will be going open source without any restrictions, except for full games. We won’t be allowing full games because we are trying to promote creating and giving back to the community, not "I just spent 5 min adding some characters to my select”- stop being lazy and make your own game.http://www.mugen-infantry.net/forum/index.php?topic=82537.0

At least in the release board. And since most post releases from others, this poses a great problem.

[Theendgamelv3]

You might as well not release anything. Two huge Mugen sites as mentioned follow open source rule. I mean lets say you make a awsome character everyone loves, but is a beta and you tell people not to use your stuff. Well since two huge mugen forums don't care about that, people like to edit or warehouse and what then? Lets say you DON'T release them on there. What stops people from releasing edits of YOUR characters on there, nothing. It is a lose situation no matter what you do. I hate to break it to you, but with the Guild and Infantry being 2 huge mugen forums, there is no way your stuff will be respected.

[GaryCXJk]

Like I said, you'd rather edit from a broken character, only to learn later that the broken factors get fixed?

These things are to protect people who would love to learn from code.

Besides, MUGEN is one of the worst things to code in, due to the fact that code gets really messy, and coders of MUGEN characters are messy themselves. You really won't learn jack from the code MUGEN creators make. The only character well documented and well ordered is Kung Fu Man, and he was just made for others to learn from.

And seriously, don't you think it's disrespectful? It's like wearing the coat of someone else without asking, or more general, using the working gear of someone else. You don't actually own the gear, and basically everyone can use it, but it still isn't nice if someone else uses your working gear. Most employees do have trouble with others using their gear, even though they're supposed to be "public domain".

To put it even more simpler. PHP code. PHP is freely available for everyone to use, and you can use scripts from others to achieve what you want to achieve. Yet, people there respect the wishes of the creators. If something specifically states that none of the code may be used without permission / credit, then people should respect that opinion. Not to mention some code is actually copyrighted or is in some form licensed.

And to be honest, I'd rather have people code things themselves. It's how people can actually learn to code. Nobody learns from just rehashing, especially when coders are too lazy to document their own creations. Plus, by coding yourself you can do certain things faster, or better. I created a superjump myself, and even though it's not perfect, I at least know how to make jumps outside the regular commands. Because I dare to create the code myself I allowed myself to be flexible. I can basically just create a man holding up a football (soccer ball for you yanks) and fighting with it as if it were a weapon. All just generated with code. Not that I would, but just as an example.

You see, making everything open source can have advantages, but it has probably more disadvantages, and not just for the creators of the original pieces. It has a lot more disadvantages for the people using the code.

[Theendgamelv3]

Well of people don't care. People in this world, steal, cheat, kill, etc. Sure using KFM is the best way to learn how to make a character, but some people don't care about that. Is it wrong, yea, but with a community of 10,000s you are bound to have people who don't care and do whatever. Opening sourcing helps create characters faster. As nice as it is trying to figure out how to add a Super Jump, but if there is a open source code on how to add a Super Jump, wouldn't that be faster? Also you are flexible to try to figure out on how to make it to your liking or ask people for help on their opinion. This however isn't about if opening sourcing is good or not, but about how you don't want your stuff not to be open sourced until you're happy with it. I am simply stating that you probably shouldn't make any character public until you're happy with the character and making it open source (once you're happy with the coding). Is it unfair, yea, but that is how it is now. I mean you wouldn't have to worry about this too much if you're dealing with very small mugen sites that no one really knows, but you're not.

[GaryCXJk]

Not making it public before you're content with it is stupid. You always NEED to bug-test it, and since the creator never has time for it (not just in MUGEN, I mean why would gaming companies ask people to beta-test games?) they let their creations be beta-tested.

And yes, people don't care, but at least this forum doesn't consist of 10,000 people who actively go to this forum, or even casual. Most leechers won't bother registering here just to download characters, even more so because almost all characters from the IMT is already on the main page.

I don't really enforce people not to use my code, but it's plain stupid on that other person's part simply because I will always add something cool or neat or unique. Plus, I'm a messy coder. Unless I document my crap, you won't learn jack crap.

Finally, we have open source code snippets which are superior over open source characters. They have the explanation you need, and the support for the code itself. These snippets are easy because you know what the outcome is. Complete characters don't have this comfort.

[The Rippah, Roo'Jizah Panzermanathod]

If people can release a bunch of Ryus and such, having two fixed versions of a character isn't so bad.

[GaryCXJk]

Yes, but there's only one Bas the Teddybear, or one Lavia, or even one Warzard Blade. Imagine when people build on these things, and it appears it has a major screw up that got fixed in a subtle way.

[Theendgamelv3]

I'll say more in the matter in a bit, but Blade was released on the Guild and there isn't "Shin Blade" Orochi Blade", Evil Blade to the power of 2" or whatever Blade, the same goes for most characters. What you SHOULD worry about more is people taking your sprites, not your coding.

[GaryCXJk]

Well, sprites I'm not worried about as well. Not that anyone would want to look like a p**** with a teddybear in his sig or avatar (well, except for me, but I'm awesome, so that doesn't count), but still. Like I said, I believe in open source. However, I also have respect for other people's wishes, so I need to be solidary.

[The Rippah, Roo'Jizah Panzermanathod]

Yes, but there's only one Bas the Teddybear, or one Lavia, or even one Warzard Blade. Imagine when people build on these things, and it appears it has a major screw up that got fixed in a subtle way.

I meant 2 of those bears in a hypothetical situation. Besides, there was, at one point, only one Ryu as well, and one Ken. It's a popularity/milking thing.

[GaryCXJk]

I seriously doubt my char will be any popular

[Theendgamelv3]

Not making it public before you're content with it is stupid. You always NEED to bug-test it, and since the creator never has time for it (not just in MUGEN, I mean why would gaming companies ask people to beta-test games?) they let their creations be beta-tested.

However it has been done, several times. I believe XCB did with his Tetsu (I can be wrong here). Ex has done this on a couple of occasions with his Iceman and Cutman. The characters were complete in the sense that they had all the moves needed and major bugs out of the way to release the character. What IMT did and what some creators do is have friends and staff members beta test their characters without needing to do a public beta test.

And yes, people don't care, but at least this forum doesn't consist of 10,000 people who actively go to this forum, or even casual. Most leechers won't bother registering here just to download characters, even more so because almost all characters from the IMT is already on the main page.

I don't really enforce people not to use my code, but it's plain stupid on that other person's part simply because I will always add something cool or neat or unique. Plus, I'm a messy coder. Unless I document my crap, you won't learn jack sh*t.

It is naive to think, that this forum is safe when it has members of the guild and Infantry on here. I am a member of both places. One other thing, you're not dealing with leechers, all they do is download. You're dealing with code thieves. If you think that people won't come here to get characters cause you have register, I hate to break it to you, they will. Also if one is too lazy to type in a SN, password and email address, why would they go through all the work of trying to figure out your coding? It is like saying a person is too lazy to open a bag of chips, but will work at making a meal. Also a person who is new to mugen isn't gonna go into your coding cause they wouldn't know what to do. A person with some coding experience has a idea what you're doing. What are they gonna learn with what they know already? They need to have some coding experience in order to even use any part of your code correctly. Unless you're gonna having something really neat in store for your character that has never been done before, I doubt anyone will even try to steal your coding cause as you said, it is messy.

[GaryCXJk]

Like I said, it's out of respect for those who blocked their creations from others because of this rule. SomeMost won't even release their characters because of this.

[~Hale "R@CE" Caesar~]

 I see what you're saying i really do, and me personally, i really like your characters.... But like man i just don't think its fair to of your other fans, like what about the people who enjoy your work and they respect your wishes and the all the other mugen laws and they just so happened to not kno of where to get your stuff from because now you've took it away.... thats unfair to them... cus i mean look, no matter where you post your characters, there is a chance that someone will try to steal some of the coding, and dude there is nothing u can do..... Now hopefully if they steal it, it will be recognizable and people will see it isn't there's and they will banned or something.... But other than that, dude if you feel that way, if i was u i just wouldn't post any of my stuff until i was through.... I kno you want people to test it out but there r people who steal and there is no way to control it, so just don't release it at all until u got all the bugs out or let someone who u trust test it out.... I hate to say it like that becuz i would luv to test your stuff out and giv back feedback but dude the mugen community is uncontrollable..... There r things that happen to people who respect mugen. who create things for mugen, and who help promote mugen every single day..... And its sad but the best way nowadayz is to not host your stuff in the fisrt place but then again if you u don't then was it really worth making in the first place? I feel where you're coming from but u gotta see that maybe Theendgamelv3  is right......

[DARKTALBAIN]

In all reality this sounds like an eletist attitude to me . I like Sludge's theory , " we all went to kindergarten & learned how to share " His creations are all open source .

You post something on the internet , people are going to do something else with it . Plain & simple .

There's an edit of " Hobgoblin " running around out there that we call " Urine Goblin " because of his coloring . All I do is laugh about it .

I can see your point on this . Hobs was the first spriting I really did . My style I think has improved since then & he's going to get an update sooner or later . But here is a character with many sprites flaws , someone recolored & gave him a couple moves . That one is now worse than my original with flaws . OK , so what pretty much everyone knows I had nothing to do with " Urine Goblin " . So who cares .

This is supposed to be a hobby , have fun with it & quit worrying about the politics side of mugen . In all reality the politics side shouldn't even exist .  If you are really so worried about people not using your stuff . My suggestion , don't release anything anymore .

[GaryCXJk]

Does somebody here grasp the concept of "out of respect" and "support open source"?

Seriously, guys, I support open source, almost all my sprites are open source (you can say all my sprites, especially the ones I custom, if you know about my Project Captain N project you'll see that I made the sprites public domain), so that's not the real issue. The real issue is the fact that I don't like people who don't respect other's opinion.

You may think it's "elitist" or anything, but that makes you a douchebag. At least I respect the opinions of these "elitists". If I'm making a fanfiction, which is basically also a hobby as well as a form of art, I don't expect people to take a part of the fanfic and use it in their own work. Of course, it's plagiatising, but it's also a form of disrespect. It's also disrespectful to post somebody's videos on another site when that person specifically states not to do it, despite the fact that that person doesn't make any money out of his videos, even if you credit him.

That's why I respect the opinions of the ones who'd rather not have their stuff open sourced. It's a form of trust, if you can't even respect the wishes of someone you don't even know in person, how can anybody trust you?

But seriously, I don't think most of you even know anything about respect and trust.

[DARKTALBAIN]

I have respect & trust from people in real life . The internet , you said it yourself , people you don't even know . Why should someone respect & trust you that doesn't even know you . So all bets are off .

Now if I want to do something I contact the creator . If they say NO , I respect that .  For example , I wanted to use Acey's Hulk 2099 for something . She said no , so I didn't even make a private edit with that . You can't expect everyone on the net to think that way .

It's like I said , you post something on the net . It's open source because if someone likes what you did certain people will use it , no matter what you say about it . Get used to it , if you are going make use of the worldwide web .

In reality Sony , or name a movie company , can't even put a stop to people uploading their latest movie that's in the theatre  . Do you actually think you can stop people from using code from something you made for a free game engine that people really can't make money with ? Pretty much almost everything everyone creates , the rights are owned by someone else anyway . Now I am not really familiar with your teddy bear , but I think I've seen him before .

So in my opinion you are making a statement that certain individuals won't listen to anyway . Am I going to use your teddy bear code , no ? But the guy who uses everyone's code without permission isn't going to care that you said " don't use my code "

If you are going to continue to be involved with this , it's just something you have to accept .

BTW I will not resort to your tactics with the name calling . A true sign of maturity there ? & you want people to respect you ? That's a good one   

[MrSteve81]

I like your reasoning behind not releasing your stuff in certain places.
If you're not 100% happy with the code you shouldn't put it on a site that says its all open source.

However if you put something on the internet it WILL get into the hands of someone who WILL steal code.
I'd love it if everybody in the scene didn't use code or sprites until they were made open source but we don't live in a world like that. Sad but true.

Off Topic: My girlfriend loves your teddybear!

[~Hale "R@CE" Caesar~]

Hey Gary C, i just wanted to come back and tell you that i do respect your opinion and and wishes. See how i work is like this, i treat others how i want to be treated, thats just how I am..... so i get along with almost anybody.....  I really do think people should respect the creator's wishes becuz you guys help make mugen what it is..... And i surely wouldn't want you guys to just up and stop..... But all i am saying is that, some of these leechers out here r disrepectful, immature, and they create drama about mugen... and they sit back and laugh at others who have worked their asses off to create things for mugen because they kno it makes you mad and also they just don't care..... All they wanna do is make characters or play with them or even steal them,  and so on and on... I mean take the Bill Gates thing with Mac for instance, He basically did the same thing to the Mac guy that these code thiefs did to you and others.... And so on and so on... People just do things like this and it sucks, really it does.... All i'm saying to you is don't let them get you all riled up becuz thats what some of them want....

Now if you and some others don't want your stuff on certain websites then fine, its cool becuz you can do whatever you want to do becuz you have a right to... But also kno that also comes with a little sacrifice, and you may have to keep them on wraps a little bit becuz even if you put it here on infinity, there is still a chance that someone will use your coding, even with a different location we r still all human and we all r capable of sining like  "stealing" (Not saying that all of us do)  So just keep that in mind dude, i'm not tryin to bash at or act like someone has stole my coding so i understand, i'm just giving you my opinion to your topic and maybe a little advice because i've seen this same kind of topic come up through other creators minds and they all have to realize this sooner or later "There is no way to stop this kind of thing unless you do not put it up for download"   

[kamekaze]

actually a unposted part of MI's rule is that it is opensource only if the creator says so. so MI is not a opensource ruled site

[Theendgamelv3]

Like I said, it's out of respect for those who blocked their creations from others because of this rule. SomeMost won't even release their characters because of this.

If it was most, then there wouldn't be many mugen releases, but yet there are.

The real issue is the fact that I don't like people who don't respect other's opinion.

I thought the issue here was, list sites for you that don't do open source. I don't think your views were ever elitist one bit. You just want to protect your work. I am arguing the fact that it is almost impossible to do so when MI and the guild have such rules and to only release products you feel happy with. You don't need public betas, as I mentioned some people do beta releases among friends or team mates. Kamikaze, if that is a "unwritten" rule why don't they just post up that rule along with a list of creators who don't want their stuff that isn't open sourced. It would save of time. Gary, if what Kamikaze says is true ask a mod there to clarify.

[aa250]

All i have to say this if you plan to use someone else material make sure you do research before you use it. What that means is double check if the guy made that sprite, code or whatever because there are people who will lie and say that the sprite are theirs, but in reality they aren't. Also make sure you credit them some people take it way to seriously believe me I been in that situation when you forget to credit someone. It turns out to be flame war. As long as you credit everyone and do research you should be fine. OH BTW if I ever become a Mugen Creator you can put me on the open source section feel free to use whatever you want heck you don't have to credit beside it a hobby. Just like playing video games, drawing, and making website.