Damage Multiplier

[Acey]

So first, a shot out to all the Ultimate Marvel vs. Capcom 3 gamers out there. For the record I'm a fan of the 4 button layout with a launcher button. I'm a fan of X-Factor but I know there are so many out there who really dislike the mechanic. I can understand why Capcom did it (hype baby) and I understand why so many just want it gone. Avengers vs. X-Men is obviously influence by UMvC3 and prior entries in the versus series. Prolonged combos just seems to feel right when you’re playing a Marvel Fighting game. We had so many goals when making this game, to find an opportunity to create characters for many heroes in the Marvel Universe who haven't been made yet, a chance to tell a Marvel Comic story through a fighting game, and (as opposed to duplicating the play style of prior games in the Marvel vs. Capcom series) to provide a bridge for players who are not playing UMvC3 yet while still making a fun experience to the well-seasoned gamer. No assists, no level three hyper attacks, no snap back, no TAC, no flight mode in the middle of a combo, all of this is a combination of the limitations of Mugen and a simplification of the MvC game engine.

So what's the point of this post? Well there are two issues I want to bring together. Frist, some things about fighting games have started to wear on me. The most important one in this discussion is called "combo resets", when a player purposely lets the opponent out of a combo at a key moment in exchange for a “mix up” in order to restart their combo. When this is done legit then it's a great tactic, but I've noticed that even the commentators over at the "pro" tournaments will call just about any dropped combo a reset if the player happens to pick it up again. With the damage dampener mechanic in UMvC3 each hit in a combo does less damage as the hit counter goes up based on a set equation. Players who drop their combo because they just messed up but then get in another quick hit to start a new combo is then rewarded by bigger damage, all because they dropped their combo.

The second issues that that a lot of gamers just don't end up learning the combos. Serious combos take time to learn, and often present too much precision to actually use efficiently, consistently. When someone doesn't already have a grasp on what makes a combo work, then putting the time in to develop those tactics to get in the hit to make a combo just isn't worth it, and you end up with shouryuken spamming and random hypers. In order to reward players for completing their combo and to punish players who just are waiting for the AI to not block when they throw out a random special we have come up with a solution. But this wasn't actually the issue when the solution was made.

The real problem was that Hulk, Colossus and the big guys on our roster were completely dominating the rankings. They should do more damage because they are big but there had to be a way to offset that advantage. We didn't want to slow them down to match the slow X-Men CoTA Juggernaut speed. These aren't slow characters, even with their girth, they both are known for their speed within the pages of the comic and realistically, slowing doe gameplay just sucks (Thanks Viewtiful Joe.) They already had limited normal LMH attack combos but it didn't really matter because the characters who could do a higher count of hits within their combo were subject to a damage dampener anyways, so it wasn't adding up. Thinking out of the box the DAMAGE MULTIPLIER was developed. I'm somewhat surprised no one has really mentioned it yet other than asking if there was a dampener installed so I’d like to spell out all the details here.

The damage multiple is exactly the same for every character in the game. Each hit of a combo increases the amount of damage a character does up until you get to 10 hits or above which levels out at 150%. Now Hope can do as much damage as Hulk as long as she keeps the combo string going. There were two interesting additions to this system. First the game would end too quickly so we raised all character's life to 150%. This means that even if a character had hypothetically been able to maintain 150% damage for the whole match then the round would last a normal amount of time that mugen users were used to. So if anything, this ended up prolonging the match, especially for someone who isn't using their combos. The second outcome is that the decision was made to keep hyper attacks unscaled in damage. Hyper attacks do damage within the rage of 250 to 310 out of 1,000 life points. It would take 3.5 hyper attacks to kill an opponent with hyper attacks only. Now AvX hypers still do about 300 damage but it’s out of 1,500 life points, and hypers do not scale in damage. Even at the end of a combo the hyper still does its base 300 points. Some have pointed out that you gain a high amount of combo meter through the course of a battle. Well this is why. You’ll have to spend 5 or more meters in a single round to K.O. your opponent. Another important point to note is that if you do a combo up to 150%, then do an unscaled hyper, then continue your combo, the combo does not reset back to 100%, it's still at 150% damage or picks up at whatever the hit count left off at when the hyper ended. (For those who want to work out the math, the typical damage for normal attacks are in the range of 30, 50, 70 for light, medium and hard attacks respectively.) Special attacks are subject to the combo multiplier as well.

Now you have a system that rewards players for long combos, rather than punishing them. This system gives a new purpose to a variety of normal and special attacks that in prior games just seemed redundant. This also addresses the gamers who mentioned that they wanted to see new stuff added to the characters who transitioned from XSC to AvX. Well it’s all there, just waiting to be explored.

An outcome of the damage multiplier is that through skilled game play Magneto or Hope would do a 75% combo while Hulk would only do a 50% combo (with less effort mind you). Hulk became an easier character to pick up with limited expandability. In this reverse situation the solution is easy and logical. Decrease the life of Hope and Magneto (and Rogue and so on) and now it all balances and makes sense, of course Magneto has less life than Hulk.

Now we’ve created a bridge between a mugen game and UMvC3. Our Cable training mode allows you to enter arcade mode without spending any time in the training room, and you will go into a fight knowing your character’s basic combo, launcher and OTG command (and if you already know it all you can press start to skip it with ease.) Then in the game you have no option but to literally see ground bounces, wall bounces and soft launchers as the happen, which then will be what drives the player into the training mode, to perfect something they already discovered on their own.

Where does this leave hyper attacks? Well hypers now fill a new roll in AvX. First of all don’t expect that a desperation hyper at the end of a match will chip your opponent out. You’ll notice that chip is pretty low in this game. Besides being a sure fire way to get an unscaled 300 points of damage on your opponent (and much less risky than attempting a combo strong), certain hypers can now be stacked (linked) if you have the meter to use it as such, or in many cases spending a level of hyper meter can create an extra wall bounce, OTG, some type of auto combo or properly placed opponent in order to continue a combo. Now not only are combos more accessible without dumbing them down, they are a rudimentary part of game play and they provide more reward. We expect any can find a 60% to 75% combo with each character. Anything more than that and the game play will be adjusted to correct our oversight. If you can get two clean hits in, and two full combos that don’t get dropped then you’ll have a K.O. What about a comeback mechanic? Isn’t it unfair that a player can trap the opponent in a long combo string? Well AvX combos still are shorter than vanilla Marvel vs. Capcom 3 Dante combos and if you want a comeback mechanic, it’s called round two, now work on getting the first clean hit in, which is the best skill any fighting game can properly teach a player.

[HyperVoiceActing]

You could skip the tutorial?! 

[Acey]

You could skip the tutorial?! 

, only for those who actually read the text promps the first time through. I think this is one of the best easter eggs, only the readers will find it. 

[HyperVoiceActing]

, only for those who actually read the text promps the first time through. I think this is one of the best easter eggs, only the readers will find it. 

I agree, I never thought to hit start early

[Darkflare]

Feel the need to address a few things.

Players who drop their combo because they just messed up but then get in another quick hit to start a new combo is then rewarded by bigger damage, all because they dropped their combo.

I like to see it as the opponent being punished for not blocking. If the combo is dropped, then it can be blocked.

The real problem was that Hulk, Colossus and the big guys on our roster were completely dominating the rankings. They should do more damage because they are big but there had to be a way to offset that advantage. We didn't want to slow them down to match the slow X-Men CoTA Juggernaut speed. These aren't slow characters, even with their girth, they both are known for their speed within the pages of the comic and realistically, slowing doe gameplay just sucks (Thanks Viewtiful Joe.)

There's a reason why they're slow in gameplay. It's the same reason why Shuma doesn't instantly win against anyone that isn't himself, Dormammu or Dr. Strange.

Thinking out of the box the DAMAGE MULTIPLIER was developed.

wat?

The damage multiple is exactly the same for every character in the game. Each hit of a combo increases the amount of damage a character does up until you get to 10 hits or above which levels out at 150%. Now Hope can do as much damage as Hulk as long as she keeps the combo string going.

What? No...that's not how you balance a game. If the damage multiplier is the same for everyone, then all it means is that eveyone just does more damage. Nothing really has changed. Everyone is the same as they were before and the big guys still dominate and even moreso since now they do MORE damage.

Now you have a system that rewards players for long combos, rather than punishing them.

But you were already rewarded with long combos with meter gain. Yes, a long combo will eventually do very little damage per hit, but it's like you're forgetting the damage done from the previous hits.

Sure, resets are an effective way to do more damage, but you're effectively taking a chance at it. A longer combo means you can do a bit more damage through it. But if you attempt a reset, you're taking a chance that the opponent might block and/or punish you for it instead. Resets are basically risk/reward strategies.



Just...this is a bad and potentially gamebreaking idea. All this system does is make everyone do more damage, it doesn't really fix anything. It also kills some of the metagame, since now there's little reason to attempt resets since you'll most likely finish up your opponent through your longer combo(Which in this case, won't be as long as they should be).

[Acey]

What? No...that's not how you balance a game. If the damage multiplier is the same for everyone, then all it means is that eveyone just does more damage. Nothing really has changed. Everyone is the same as they were before and the big guys still dominate and even moreso since now they do MORE damage.

Just...this is a bad and potentially gamebreaking idea. All this system does is make everyone do more damage, it doesn't really fix anything. It also kills some of the metagame, since now there's little reason to attempt resets since you'll most likely finish up your opponent through your longer combo(Which in this case, won't be as long as they should be).

This system is designed for two major reasons, encourage combos and a starting place to balance the game. It does both of these very well. The comment "Nothing really has changed" suggests that I didn't explain the math, or the reasonsing behind the math very well. True, nothing much changes between two magic combo characters or two LMH combo characters, which is good because neither of these are the issue in the first place. The balance is completely different in a match between a single magic combo char and a LMH combo char and that is what spawned this concept. What you consider as possibly game breaking not only solved the most major balance issue we faced but it also opened up a new style of gameplay while still focusing on the core.

Look at it this way, without a multiplier then Hulk and Colossus would require some kind of nerfs in order to not overpower the game. So what would you do? Damage dampening only makes the issue worse. It's only serves to keep combos from 100% the opponent as players discover new tech within the game system that the programmers didn't and can't possibly account for. Another option is to nerf the characters in one form or another. Capcom gives them heavy damage potential but then increases their startup frames, increase their recovery time to male them "less safe" and limits their movement potential. Right now you don't see these chars in a top 8 of a major because they just can't compare with the characters balanced in the middle (midle life, middle damage) and if UMvC3 was a one on one fighter like AvX then you'd never see these guys at all.

If Hulk does more damage in less hits than the smaller characters, then increase the damage based on a percentage of hit count and you just solved the problem.

ifelse(fvar(12)<9,ifelse(fvar(12)=0, 1, ifelse(fvar(12)=1, 1.05, 1.05**fvar(12))),1.5)

1 hit = 100%
2 = 1.05%
3 = 1.10%
4 = 1.16%
5 = 1.22%
6 = 1.27%
7 = 1.34%
8 = 1.40%
9 = 1.48%
10 and up = 1.50%

(rounded to the 100th digit)

[Macaulyn97]

So what's the point of this post? Well there are two issues I want to bring together. Frist, some things about fighting games have started to wear on me. The most important one in this discussion is called "combo resets", when a player purposely lets the opponent out of a combo at a key moment in exchange for a “mix up” in order to restart their combo. When this is done legit then it's a great tactic, but I've noticed that even the commentators over at the "pro" tournaments will call just about any dropped combo a reset if the player happens to pick it up again. With the damage dampener mechanic in UMvC3 each hit in a combo does less damage as the hit counter goes up based on a set equation. Players who drop their combo because they just messed up but then get in another quick hit to start a new combo is then rewarded by bigger damage, all because they dropped their combo.

Well, er... When you reset a combo, the opponent has its opportunity to guard, it isn't an issue, even if AI's doesn't guard a reset, it doesn't mean that they can't do it. This isn't an issue.

The real problem was that Hulk, Colossus and the big guys on our roster were completely dominating the rankings. They should do more damage because they are big but there had to be a way to offset that advantage. We didn't want to slow them down to match the slow X-Men CoTA Juggernaut speed. These aren't slow characters, even with their girth, they both are known for their speed within the pages of the comic and realistically, slowing doe gameplay just sucks (Thanks Viewtiful Joe.) They already had limited normal LMH attack combos but it didn't really matter because the characters who could do a higher count of hits within their combo were subject to a damage dampener anyways, so it wasn't adding up.

The main reason for heavy characters to be slow is because of their strong attacks, this was made to balance everything because otherwise the lighter characters wouldn't have any chance. Its not like they couldn't dash or make combos, but even their AI is more agressive, if you put two characters to fight in watch mode, you'll see that the heavy ones will win most of them. I liked the idea of the game, the characters and the gameplay, but it isn't balanced, and that is very bad.

[Weather0712]

The Lightning Strike of the Storm could take more damage, and the Scarlet Witch Hex Blast also because it becomes somewhat indifferent Hex Box, the Revitalize would also have to regenerate more health Wanda, because with a 3 punches in what Wanda would take longer Revitalize that granted it. For now it was, this game is very cool, congratulations Acey.